THE ONE’s 60 Minutes Interview

I am so glad this preening jackass wasn’t in charge during 9/11.

From THE ONE’s upcoming interview on 60 Minutes:

Obama fires back at former Vice President Dick Cheney’s charge that his plan to close the prison at Guantanamo Bay and end the torture of terrorism suspects has made the U.S. less safe:

“How many terrorists have actually been brought to justice under the philosophy that is being promoted by Vice President Cheney? It hasn’t made us safer. What it has been is a great advertisement for anti-American sentiment.”

Pressed by Kroft that some of the released prisoners have returned to terrorist groups, the president said, “There is no doubt that we have not done a particularly effective job in sorting through who are truly dangerous individuals … to make sure [they] are not a threat to us,” he says. But he called the Bush administration’s policy on detainees at Guantanamo -including long incarcerations with no trials – “unsustainable.”

Well first of all you schmuck, GITMO is used to detain enemy POWs and glean intelligence information on terrorist cells and activities. We do that to stop more terrorists dead (literally) in their tracks as well as prevent other attacks from happening. Much of that information has been scuccessful in preventing another attack on this country, as well as helping to save lives of troops on the ground.

Obama’s idea of “justice” is to treat them as ordinary defendants in the judicial system. That is wrong on so many levels. Not the least of which is that we are at war, the “defendants” in question are not American citizens, and they are not guaranteed rights under our Bill of Rights and Constitution.

This moron thinks releasing terrorists from GITMO will make us ‘safer’ than keeping them locked up.

And he also says Treasury Secretary tax cheat Tim Geithner is doing a bang-up job.

He’s gonna be such a fucking joy these next four years.

We’re screwed.

145 thoughts on “THE ONE’s 60 Minutes Interview”

  1. My life has been getting very busy lately. So far, I’ve managed to fit you in, but something has to give. You’re it.

    1. dcjnor,

      Awwwww…and I was enjoying the prospect of toying with your ignorance ad infinitum.

      So much for writing me ‘under the table’.
      Buh bye, sweetpea. Don’t take any wooden Dinars.

      SFC MAC

    1. dcjnor,

      Such stupidity! Do you really expect anyone to think that capitulation is a (sneaky) way to get advantage over an invading enemy? You’re definitely bonkers, sweetpea.

      You need better sources than the wikipedia morons.

      On April 9, 1940 Germany occupied Denmark without facing any real resistance. King Christian and the Danish government told the Danes to remain calm and “discreet” towards the occupation for the good of Denmark.

      Shortly afterwards the whole antiaircraft defense system was handed over to the Germans for whom it became an important weapon in the defense of Hamburg. Even more important for the Germans was Aalborg airport that, with the help of Danish workers, was completed in three months to become the most strategic airport in northern Europe. According to some historians this airport was the main reason for -the occupation of Denmark.

      And don’t think some Danes weren’t pissed:

      Many citizens were angry at the authorities for not doing more to resist the invading forces. A resistance movement was quickly set up, much in the same way as in France with sabotage and guerrilla raids disrupting the occupiers. At the centre of the resistance were residents of the working class district of Nørrebro. Still looking much the same today as it did in 1940, the narrow streets running to the north of the city centre create a maze of high tenement blocks. These provided excellent cover for snipers and the hated occupiers never felt safe walking through this area. Istedgade, now the main street in the capital’s red-light-district, was another focal point for the resistance. Named after a famous Danish military victory in Germany, the street was the scene of violent demonstrations against the invaders on more than one occasion.

      Not all of them bought into your “peaceful resistance” bullshit.

      Oh, and lookie here. Apparently the Danes have a little guilt over doing their bit for the Nazi regime:

      Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen on Wednesday officially apologized on behalf of Denmark for the extradition of innocent people to Nazi Germany during the World War II, calling it “shameful.”,1564,1573618,00.html

      Your whitewashing of WWII would make Joseph Goebbels proud.

      The Greeks didn’t win a damned thing. The Romans adopted some of their culture by choice, not force. That’s obviously a concept that goes over your pointy head.

      Like the atrocities committed by muslim “culture”.

      You’re a piece of work.

      SFC MAC

  2. And No, Ireland’s “Troubles” were over discrimination in jobs and housing and just about every other aspect of life, along with long memories regarding the abuses of English landlords on the Irish whose land had simply been stolen and handed over to English overlords. I could go on for quite a bit, since we spent our last holiday there with a dear friend we have had for some 20 years of so, but I’d be wasting education on someone determined to remain ignorant.

    Your references are pitiful. It’s totally obvious that similar references could be produced regarding violence in the opposite directions of these. Most of the perpetrators on their side have the minimal excuse of ignorance regarding those of different religions. You lack that excuse.

    You’re quoting one of Paul’s letters. He was quite a zealot, and it is from other verses of those letters that Christians got the idea that forceably converting those of other lands or killing them was OK.

    I see you’ve still not managed to research of a comparison of religious body counts. You won’t either, becaue Christians didn’t count the bodies of those they decimated in the Americas and Africa.

    No, I said that Romans “won” militarily, but actually Greece won culturally (and non-violently). Roman and Greek myth systems did not correlate until after the Romans “conquered” Greece as anyone who ever took Latin would know.

    1. dcjnor,

      And No, Ireland’s “Troubles” were over discrimination in jobs and housing and just about every other aspect of life….

      Really? I said the Irish wanted independence from Britain. That had to do with the way they were treated by the British and the Loyalists. I already had that figured out, because some of my IRISH ancestors came to America during the turn of the last century.

      It wasn’t simply about religion. I.E. “Catholics versus the Protestants”

      Talk about ignorant.

      The references show exactly how violent muslims are in the name of Islam. What’s the matter? You don’t think they’re actually commiting these atrocities? Take a good look at the perpetrators and the victims. These innocent casualties were targeted becasue of their ‘non-muslim, infidel’ status. Why else would a bunch of muslims bust into a church and slaughter Christians? Hint: they’re not there to attend a sermon about “non-violence”.

      Let’s see if you can match my sources one on one, with examples of Christian/Jewish slaughter of muslims, in the name of their respective “gods”, especially right now in the 21st Century. Last I checked, we didn’t start this war. It was started by Mohammad’s faithful followers.

      The Apostle Paul??? Uh, no. The consensus of Biblical scholars is Ecclesiastes was probably written by Solomon.
      Your facts on that are about as reliable as the rest of your theories.

      The Koran is chock full of ‘converting those of other lands and killing them’.

      Shall I cite those references, as well?

      I see you’ve still not managed to research of a comparison of religious body counts.

      All of the citations point to the worldwide deliberate murder of thousands of Christians (and others) by muslims in the name of Islam, from ancient history to the present. Whether during religious wars, by individuals, or modern day terrorist gangs and cells, the corpses are piling up. I’d say that’s quite a religious body count.

      The study of Latin is not required to recognize the correlation between Greek and Roman cultures/gods. Nor is it required to understand that Greece was invaded by violent means. The Romans didn’t arrive to ask them if they minded being absorbed into the Roman Empire. If you consider the willing adaptation of Greek culture into Roman culture a “win”, that’s pretty far fetched.

      Let me explain it so that even you can understand. The Greek culture was not forced on Rome.
      There is a difference between adopting some of the characteristics of another culture, and having it force-fed.

      Gee, if only other countries like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, the Philippines, and Albania had just given up, they could have “won culturally (and non-violently)” against the Nazis, Imperialist Japanese, and Fascist Italians. The countries that suffered under the Soviets for 70+ years must have felt they made such a “cultural” difference on Moscow. Now, if we would just let the Islamofascists march right in and subject Western civilization to Sharia Law…..

      You’re as dense as they come. Seriously gal, you’re losing it. Deny, deny, deny. That’s your refuge from all the reports of the “tiny, tiny” massacres by the people you think are just ‘misunderstood’.

      Keep the laughs coming.

      SFC MAC

  3. Yes, Denmark. Denmark was smart. They were invaded and “conquered” by Germany, except they weren’t. When Germany required Jews to wear the star, the King set the example and put on the star himself as did all the Danes, thus preventing Germans from using it to identify Jews. Then the Danes actually spirited almost every single Jew out of the country in a fisherman’s boat lift. All together, they lost 73. Then, they set about resisting in a very unique way. They “eagerly” and purposefully totally incompetently “collaborated” with the Germans, who soon found out that if they ordered a Dane to do something, the Dane would, mess it up so completely that the orginal aim was made more difficult than it was originally. It we” documented how well their resistence worked. That’s my kind of resistance.

    There. You learned something.

    1. dcjnor,

      Re-read my previous post. All of it. You’ll learn something.

      Here’s another fact you ignored while revising history to suit your opinion:

      After Denmark was invaded, they quickly surrendered and subsequently collaborated with the Nazis. They figured it best to capitulate because they couldn’t defeat the German invaders on their own, so they might as well not fight. This may have saved Danish lives, but it also allowed Germany to occupy the country with fewer troops then otherwise, thus freeing up troops for the assault on France. That’s in stark contrast to the heavy opposition to German invasion given by for instance, Norway. The Danes’ chickenshit policy aided and abetted the Germans. Like Vichy.

      There was no resistance. They were Nazi tools. Smart? More like cowardly.

      I’d dare say you wouldn’t get the first few words of “give peace a chance” out of your mouth before some Islamic jihadist brought a sword down on your neck.
      Don’t expect the rest of us to follow suit.

      Meanwhile, the body count of the ‘peaceful religion of Islam’ continues to rise.

      SFC MAC

  4. What happened to my post about the other ways of fighting besides violence, thus as the way Denmark managed to keep more of its Jews alive than any other country in Europe?

    It is not capitulation to fight by non-violent means.

    You quote individual radical Islamists as representing all. They simply do not.
    They represent a tiny tiny minority of Muslims. As for different sects being violent with each other, I give you the Catholics versus the early Protestants and the war fought by the two different versions of Russian Orthodox dhurches over how many fingers to used to cross oneself. All the more reason for building tolerance to difference religious belief.

    Nope, not a single one of your references has compared body counts of Islam versus body counts of Christianity.

    No matter how many individual instances you bring up, they won’t add up to the list that could be made of Christian atrocities over its history.

    I would fight for my country by non-violent means since I consider them to be both more effective and because I believe killing is wrong, period.

    There are many historical instances in which one coutry “won” militarily, and the country it “conquered” won culturally, the most obvious one the example of Rome “conquering” Greece, only to have Roman culture become Greek-like, not at all the other way around.

    India is largely peaceful. Pakistan is not at the moment, mostly because the US pushed so many radical Muslims into the country.

    1. dcjnor,

      Denmark? You’ve got to be kidding. They were invaded in WWII as well. Their neutrality did not give them immunity from Nazi violence. If every country in the group of Allies tried your ‘let’s just kiss their ass’ approach, Britain, if not most of Europe, would have been annexed to Germany. Pick a better example. But you can’t, because there isn’t any.

      By the way, the cause of the civil war in Ireland was based in politics, not necessarily religion. The Irish Catholics wanted independence from England while the Irish Protestants were loyal to British rule. Religion was secondary. There’s been a ceasefire since 1994.

      And how do you ‘fight’ a hostile enemy with ‘non-violent’ means? That statement is just as convoluted as your thinking. “Non-violent” response makes it that much easier for a country to be conquered.
      That’s just what an enemy wants; the path of least resistance.

      Tiny, tiny, my ass. That so-called “tiny, tiny minority” causes a river of blood everytime they kill in the name of Islam.

      More offerings from the ‘religion of peace’: (You’ll notice this is a daily occurrence)

      2009.04.28 (Yala, Thailand) – A 16-year-old girl is among four members of a family brutally shot to death in their home by Islamic terrorists.
      2009.04.28 (Pattani, Thailand) – A Buddhist man is gunned down by Mujahideen.
      2009.04.27 (Yala, Thailand) – A man watching a soccer game and Buddhist plantation worker are among five people murdered separately by Muslim gunmen.
      2009.04.26 (Sultan Kudarat, Philippines) – Moro Islamists plant a bomb near a beach, killing one passerby.
      2009.04.26 (Peshawar, Pakistan) – A young woman is murdered by her family for choosing a singing career against their approval.
      2009.04.26 (Kirkuk, Iraq) – Islamists slit the throats of a Christian woman and her daughter-in-law.

      More violence against Christians. (in Iraq)

      In Jakarta.

      It’s okay to kill those who abandon Islam.

      Expansion of jihadist training in Europe.

      Forcing people out of their homes and community.

      Not much justice for the British 7/7 victims

      A clear majority of Muslims in Denmark doesn’t want religion to be criticized, according to a survey Capacent prepared for DR. (or esle)

      Young girl raped, forced to convert to Islam.

      Nope, not a single one of your references has compared body counts of Islam versus body counts of Christianity.

      Keep counting.
      Throughout history to the present.

      The intensely controversial Jihad, mentioned in the Koran, refers to a “Holy War” fought against unbelievers. Mohammed himself led Jihads against alien people. When tribes did not pledge their allegiance to Allah, they were often put to the sword.

      Over 3200 churches were destroyed or converted into mosques during the first century of Islamic Jihad alone. During the Muslim invasion of Syria in AD 634 thousands of Christians were massacred. As Mesopotamia was conquered between AD 635 and 643 many churches and monasteries were ransacked, and ministers and Christians slain. In the conquest of Egypt AD 640 and 641, the towns of Behnesa, Fayum, Nikiu and Aboit were all put to the sword. When the Muslims invaded Cyprus, they looted and pillaged homes and churches and massacred much of the population. In North Africa, when Tripoli was captured in AD 643, all the Jews and Christians were forced to hand their women and children over as slaves. When Carthage was captured, it was burned to the ground and most of its inhabitants slaughtered.

      Beginning in AD 712 the Muslim armies invaded India. They smashed and demolished temples, plundered palaces, slaughtered millions of Indian men and enslaved the women and children. The ancient cities of Baranasai Mathura, Uggain, Maheshwar, Jwalamukhi and Dwarka were sacked, the populations massacred, and not one temple left standing.

      Slavery, Terrorism and Islam documents hundreds of massacres of Christian populations by Muslim rulers. For example: In 1860 over 12,000 Christians were slaughtered in Lebanon. In 1876 14,700 Bulgarians were murdered by the Turks. 200,000 Armenian Christians were slaughtered by the Turks in Bayazid in 1877. And in 1915 the Turks massacred over 1.5 million Armenian Christians. As recently as September 1922 the Turkish army destroyed the ancient city of Smyrna with its 300,000 Christian population.

      More on Armenia:

      The Armenian Genocide, occurred when 2 million Armenians living in Turkey were eliminated from their historic homeland through forced deportation and massacres by the (muslim) Turks.


      Muslims have slaughtered an estimated 600 Christians this week in Nigeria, according to the Christian Association of Nigeria.
      The carnage in Kano, in the country’s mostly Muslim north, began with a protest in retaliation for Muslim deaths hundreds of miles away in Yelwe, said the British-based monitor of persecution against Christians, Barnabas Fund, the Assist News service reported.

      Persecution of non-muslims in the Middle East.

      I’ve yet to see any proof of ‘moderate muslims’ (an oxymoron) taking to the streets or speaking out against the violence being carried out on behalf of Islam. Tacit disapproval doesn’t count.

      A little research on your part would have disproved your assertion that the ‘body counts of Islam versus body counts of Christianity’ don’t compare. But then, that wouldn’t help your ‘argument’. Ignorance and denial come so much easier to you.

      Contradictory to your ideas, sometimes killing isn’t wrong.
      I’ll even use quotes from the Bible, since you’re religious.

      Ecclesiastes 3:3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up.

      Ecclesiastes 3:5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.

      You’ll note the Bible verse doesn’t target any particular ethnic/racial/religious group; but the Koran does. Ecclesiastes acknowleges that there are times when you have to defend yourself and kill those who would kill you. Makes sense to me.

      There’s no such thing as ‘non-violent’ fighting against a violent enemy. If you think being a Ghandi-type, performing self-immolation, acquiescing, or trying to reason with a belligerent, brutal attacker will get you anywhere, good luck.

      Islamofascists started this religious/culture war, not us. They fired the first volley against America specifically, back in 1979 with the Iranian hostage crises. The Islamic violence against the West escalated from there. We should have stopped them years ago by taking out every Islamic-nation state responsible.

      We did a pretty thorough job in WWII. We took out the enemy as well as the civilian support base, including weapons munitions factories, tank factories, you name it. Hell, Allied forces firebombed Dresden for 10 days, leveling it. We decimated Italy. The bombs we dropped on Japan ended the war in the Pacific.

      Modern day Euros are trying, as Churchill said, ‘to appease an alligator hoping it will eat them last’.

      Europe is bending over backwards to accomodate the violent muslim population within its borders. If it ever gets to a point where muslim representatives get a foothold in your Parliament, don’t expect the bloodshed to stop.

      You act as if Greece became a Roman satellite by choice. Wrong. Roman victory in the Punic Wars and Macedonian Wars established Rome as a super-regional power by the 2nd century BC, (146 BC and the Roman conquest of Greece after the Battle of Corinth) followed up by the acquisition of Greece and Asia Minor. The influence between Rome and Greece was mutual. Rome succeed as an empire, Greece did not. As for cultural influence, Old Roman deities were equated with the Greek gods and accordingly endowed with their attributes and myths. This was just one of the reasons why Greek culture assimilated into Roman culture so easily. They had much in common.

      As for Pakistan: Terrorists fled after getting their asses kicked out of Afghanistan. Newsflash: the Taliban has moles in Pakistan’s military, intelligence service, and in their government. No ‘pushing’ was needed.

      Again, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

      But keep it up. You’re so entertaining.

      SFC MAC

  5. No, but I don’t think we should go over and forceably change their way of life either. It’s pretty funny that you should accuse me of that when it is you yourself who are in favor of the US, [which, before Bush (and thankfully after him) demanded a higher level of morality of its own action,] acting as those you call uncivilized do.

    I note you have no references for your contention that Islam’s body count exceeds that of Christianity because that is just not true.

    You’ve forgotten, apparently, I’m American living in the UK.

    As for Ghandi, there are a few things worth dying for. For Ghandi, a relatively peaceful transition to independence for India was one of those things.

    As for your references, why are you concerned? After all, most of those killed were those you advocated being killed in your last post? And by the way, those they killed, though Muslim, were among those of us who know that killing is wrong.

    1. dcjnor,

      Change their way of life?

      “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Quran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.”
      –Omar Ahmad, CAIR founder

      There’s more of that in the Koran. And MEMRI. And Al Jazeera.

      That pile of crap you’re standing on gets higher every day. Considering all the bloodshed they’ve caused, morality is the last thing on their minds.

      The point of the citations is to show you that they’re not averse to slaughtering their own men women and children, (which is better than targeting us, in my opinion) and quite frankly, if they stuck to that, we wouldn’t be in this war now.

      They brought terrorism to America in the name of Islam, not the other way around. They won’t even worship peacefully on their own turf. That should tell you something, sweetpea. Civilized, they ain’t.

      I note you have no references for your contention that Islam’s body count exceeds that of Christianity because that is just not true.

      Really? You’ve not been paying attention. This religious/culture war started when Islam declared war on Christians in 692AD. If you expect ‘non believers’ to roll over and die, you’re sadly mistaken. The trouble with your “killing is wrong” kvetching, is that it doesn’t carry a whole lot of weight with belligerant enemies hellbent on world domination. (Hint: Islamic-nation states) They’ve killed thousands throughout history, and the body count grows as we speak.

      More offerings from the ‘peaceful religion of Islam’:

      Convert or die:

      Beheading those who do:

      More love for the children:

      Love for the children who dare to ‘westernize’ after the family moves to a western country:

      The Dhimmification of Britain continues:

      Another compilation:

      2009.04.26 (Dir, Pakistan) – A dozen children are blown apart by a bomb hidden in a football planted by Sunni hardliners to punish their families.
      2009.04.26 (Khost, Afghanistan) – Three local border guards are murdered by Taliban bombers.
      2009.04.26 (Datta Khel, Pakistan) – Six people are blown to bits by a Mujahideen roadside bomb.
      2009.04.25 (Tal Keef, Iraq) – A Christian woman is abducted and beheaded by Islamic radicals.
      2009.04.25 (Mogadishu, Somalia) – Three civilians are shot to death in a sustained attack by a religious extremist group.
      2009.04.25 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) – Three Shahid suicide bombers kill five local guards at a government building.

      That’s the just the kind of ‘peace’ they want to spread throughout the West.

      You still have not answered my point:

      The trouble with the Left is that none of you can actually say if or when you would take up arms and defend your country.

      You seem more Euro than American. Must be all that effete indoctrination.
      Your not “American”, you’re an expatriot. When do you plan on ‘going native’ all the way and becoming a British subject?

      Ghandi died like a sitting duck. “Non-violent” cheek-turning only serves to get your other cheek slapped. By the way, the main thing he protested was the British colonization of India. When they pulled out , the real bloodshed began. Tell me, what is his legacy? Is there peace in that region of the world? By the looks of it, I’d say far from it.

      Killing is wrong? Try capitulation.

      SFC MAC

  6. Yes, killing is wrong. It’s wrong when they do it. It’w wrong when you do it. It’s wrong when anyone does it. Totally consistent.

    I note you didn’t address the comparative histories.

    There are many things worth living for. There are a few things worth dying for. There is nothing worth killing for.

    There are also many ways of fighting, including non-violent ways. The Danes lost less of their Jews than anyone else in WWII. Why? When the Danish Jews were told to wear the star, the Danish king put on the star himself as did all the Danes, thus destroying its effect in identifying Jews. Then the Danish nation boatlifted all its Jews out of the country to Sweden.

    Ghandi won India non-violently after violent methods had not worked.

    Talk aabout prejudice and ugliness of the soul. You just wished tiny innocent newborns death.

    1. C’mon dcjnor,

      Just be honest; come out and say that you support the efforts of the 7th Century camel jockeys to destroy America, along with Western civilization. Say it. You know you want to. You’ve been gearing up for it since you posted your very first churlish comment.

      Newsflash: Islam has done its fair share of enslaving. Their body count surpassed anything Christians and Jews ever did, especially considering they’ve picked up where they left off, into the 20th and 21st centuries.

      The trouble with the Left is that none of you can actually say if or when you would take up arms and defend your country. What’s it gonna take? Another wave of double-decker bus bombings? Anjem Choudary knocking on your door?
      Since you’re British (?) it’s good to know that people like you didn’t dominate England during the Nazi invasion of Europe. You’d all be speaking German by now.

      Ghandi was assassinated. So much for non-violence.

      The latest offerings from the ‘peaceful religion of Islam’:

      “Equal Opportunity”:
      Two female suicide bombers struck a major Shiite shrine in Baghdad, killing at least 58 people amid a brutal spike of attacks nine weeks before US troops are to withdraw from Iraqi cities.

      More religious ‘tolerance’:,7340,L-3705477,00.html

      Women’s “rights”:

      More good will toward the local populace:
      2009.04.25 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) – Three Shahid suicide bombers kill five local guards at a government building.
      2009.04.25 (Mogadishu, Somalia) – Islamic hardliners murder eight people in a mortar attack on a residential area.
      2009.04.24 (Pulwama, India) – A 55-year-old man is shot to death inside his home by suspected Mujahideen.
      2009.04.24 (Jalawla, Iraq) – A Fedayeen car bomber takes out seven Shiite pilgrims.
      2009.04.23 (Farah, Afghanistan) – A local policeman is killed in a Taliban ambush.


      Renewed threats against Europe:
      The Al-Qaeda linked Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan on Wednesday released a video threatening the “criminal” German government and citizens of the Jewish faith, according to German media.
      In the video, the third released this year, shows a man identified as “Commander Mohammad”, who criticises the presence of German troops in Afghanistan.
      The man accuses “the sons of Germany of being in the service of the Jews” unlike “Granddad Hitler”.

      FOUR men accused of a foiled German terror plot were fuelled by hatred and aimed to cause destruction on the scale of September 11, a court heard yesterday. “The defendants were driven by the will to destroy the enemies of Islam — particularly US citizens — in Germany and to reach the scale of the September 11 attacks,” prosecutor Volker Brinkmann said as he opened the trial at Duesseldorf state court.
      The four, two Germans and two Turks, were moved by “profound hatred of the USA as the greatest enemy of Islam”, said another prosecutor, Ralf Setton. He said they aimed to kill “as many people as possible”. The group planned car bomb attacks on pubs, discos and airports, and considered targets in cities including Frankfurt, Dortmund, Duesseldorf, Cologne, Stuttgart, Munich and Ramstein — where the US military has a large air base.

      And the so-called “moderate muslims”?

      Gee dcjnor, you better start telling them that “killing is wrong”. They don’t seem to know that.

      Gosh, there’s still so much more where those ‘peaceful’ acts came from.

      SFC MAC

  7. The Muslim religion is apporximately as old as Christianity was when it went through it’s era of forcefully converting folks. And considering how many people Christianity killed and enslaved during that period, I think Islam has a long way to go before it acquires an equivalent history of horrors. But in any case, again, however badly others behave, it never justifies behavior just as bad by anyone else.

    Yes, killing is wrong. Period. If it is wrong for anyone else to kill, it is wrong for us as well. Nor does their killing excuse your killing in any way.

    1. dcjnor,

      Did you actually read what you wrote?

      Yes, killing is wrong. Period. If it is wrong for anyone else to kill, it is wrong for us as well. Nor does their killing excuse your killing in any way.

      That is quintessential circular reasoning, and you’re running in circles. ‘Killing is wrong, therefore we shouldn’t kill them back’.

      Even after they’ve killed so many of us in a war they started years ago (unprovocated, I might add), because that would make us ‘just as wrong’.

      That’s bullshit on stilts.

      Yeah, you’re a real philosopher. A real intellect. Pacifists like you see nothing worth fighting for. Not your country. Not your family. Not your own lives. The word pusillanimous comes to mind.

      Here’s a good quote on the subject:

      “But war, in a good cause, is not the greatest evil which a nation can suffer.
      War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse.

      …A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice – a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice – is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.”

      John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), “The Contest in America.” Harper’s New Monthly Magazine, Volume 24, Issue 143, page 683-684. Harper & Bros., New York, April 1862.

      What do you propose we do to convince rabid Islamofasicts that “killing is wrong”. Say “pretty please”? Promise to convert?
      It would be nice to live in peace, but muslims have different ideas.

      It’s getting to the point where I can’t get through your first train of ‘thought’ without busting out laughing.

      How many bodies do they have to pile up in the name of Islam before you understand that they hate the West, our values, our freedom, and most certainly because we are not muslim?

      10 bodies here…30 bodies there….a couple more here…it accumulates into an astronomical number over the days, weeks, months, and years.

      The latest offerings from the ‘religion of peace’ (that’s the title I’ll use from now on)

      Pakistan lists 1,400 terror dead

      Instead of putting the blame on Islamic perpetrators, blame DA JOOOOOS:

      Their love of children:,pakistani-militants-turn-children-into-living-bombs–feature.html

      This is the treatment they give to people they capture.

      Their ‘tolerance’ for other religions:

      Like the Nazis, Fascists, Imperialists, and Communists we fought before them, they are brutal shitbags. We had to keep killing them too, until they quit, or ran out of combatants.

      The sooner they are all dead, the sooner the world can rest.

      SFC MAC

  8. You have no idea how big a laugh my husband would have at the very idea of me as a subservient female. Absurd.

    You continue to stereotype all Muslims as the same, when only a tiny tiny minority fit the stereotype you use as justification for killing them. Killing is just plain wrong. Face it.

    Over and over you resort to someone else’s bad behavior (such as extremist Muslim leaders advocating violence) to justify your own, just like the little kid who says Johnny does worse so he shouldn’t get punished for what he did. (Not to mention how many innocents have been killed as a result of Christian leaders advocating just that same kind of killing. By the way, this only happened once in jewish history and is acknowledged and repented for yearly.)

    1. dcjnor,

      You have no idea how foolish you look trying to minimize the Islamic terrorist carnage while condemning U.S. Soldiers for fighting an enemy hellbent on conquering the world for allah.

      “Killing is wrong….” Another statement that doesn’t need a punchline. Too bad you weren’t around to give that little speech to Mohammad Atta, Bin Laden, or Khalid Shaikh Mohammad before they decided to kill about 3000 people in America. Or to the ‘peaceful’ muslims who kill for their religion on a daily basis.

      Organized armies of Christians haven’t killed anyone in what…800 years? The last time was at the end of the final Crusade in the 13th Century. The Crusades were in response to the Turkish Islamic Ottoman Empire.
      Matter of fact, if you want to trace the origins, you can go all the way back to when Mohammad declared war in 692, and his followers started prosecuting it in 693.

      “A tiny, tiny, minority….” You have a tiny, tiny intellect.

      They don’t just advocate, they follow through. Very bad behavior, indeed.
      Let’s start keeping score, shall we?
      Hell, I’ll just select a few from the last 40 years or so:

      The USS Cole, 2000
      Khobar Towers Bombing, 1996
      Mumbai, 2008
      Munich Olympic Massacre 1972
      Attack and Hijacking at the Rome Airport, 1973
      marine Barracks in Beirut, 1983
      Restaurant Bombing in Spain, 1984
      Achille Lauro Hijacking, 1985
      Airport Attacks in Rome and Vienna, 1985
      Berlin Discothèque Bombing, 1986
      Pan Am 103 Bombing, 1988

      And here’s just a few that have happened lately: (make sure you get a good look at the pictoral display of their ‘humanitarian’ efforts)

      I can link stories and photos to the 9/11 attack, since it didn’t seem to leave much of an impression.


      An Islamofascist scumbag aka “AbuMarwan23″ has a video selection on ‘YouTube’ showing just how young future jihadists are recruited and indoctrinated to become rabid human bombs for Allah.
      Link :

      In your warped little leftwing mind, fighting back and killing an enemy who inflicts the kind of atrocities described in the above citations, is “wrong”.

      There’s lot’s more where those came from. The great thing about countering what few examples of ‘peaceful muslims’ you scrape together: Thanks to their prolific worldwide atrocities, I have an endless supply of examples.
      This is almost too easy. And so much fun.

      SFC MAC

  9. Yep, on the basis of a stereotype, since you never knew enough about any person that you killed to be sure they fit that stereotyped belief system you just detailed.

    And yep, that’s ugly.

    And yep, the tide is turning. More on the news just this morning about how the Bush administration manipulated the law and didn’t even wait until they were finished with the manipulation before they tortured.

    And your quotes are not admissions that torture worked. They’re quotes of quotes from folks who hope to remain outside prison doors by defending their actions with trumped up results.

    1. djcnor,

      “…on the basis of stereotype….” That doesn’t even require a punch line.

      Honey, when it comes to Islamic terrorists, they’re at ebb tide. You’re gonna be so devastated when reality hits and you finally realize that Obama and his “justice” department not only won’t prosecute, but will be hard pressed to prove that the interrogation measures didn’t work. The results speak for themselves. That’s why Obama did what he always does, and defers the ‘problem’ to someone else when he gets too embarrassed by his ineptness, (foreign policy) or in this case, incontrovertable facts.

      Oh yeah, this little news item oughta get your panties in a wad:

      The Obama administration said Friday that it would appeal a district court ruling that granted some military prisoners in Afghanistan the right to file lawsuits seeking their release. The decision signaled that the administration was not backing down in its effort to maintain the power to imprison terrorism suspects for extended periods without judicial oversight.

      The torture never worked? You’d better re-read the article about the planned terrorist attack on the Library Tower in Los Angeles. The patrons may beg to differ.

      I can’t recall ever hearing a priest, minister or Rabbi preach the killing of “non-believers”, because “God” COMMANDS it. (Unless you count Obama’s former church) Only in Madrasses and Mosques is this practiced on a regular basis ALL OVER THE WORLD. Islam teaches muslim children that it’s an honor to kill yourself and take innocent people with you. Islam teaches that “honor killings”–the murder of females in particular–are a duty. Beheading in the name of ‘jihad’ is a practice of Islam. Hell, as long as the victim is female, they’ll actually get an award from CAIR:

      And this just in. Another ‘stereotypical’ terrorist attack on men, women, and children from the ‘peaceful practicioners of Islam’:

      At least 25 people have been killed in a (al Qaeda) homicide bombing that struck civilians collecting humanitarian aid in Baghdad, Iraqi officials tell FOX News.

      Police and hospital officials say Thursday’s attack occurred near Tahariyat Square in the central neighborhood of Karradah.

      The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to release the information, say women and children were among the dead.,2933,517575,00.html

      Gee, ya think someone will ‘make amends’?

      You obviously think that’s okay. YOU are the ugly one.

      When the mullahs take over, all your boyfriend has to do is grow a long beard, take more wives, and keep his head low. Subservient females like you will have the bigger problem.

      SFC MAC

  10. As long as you are willing to kill on the basis of a stereotype, you are no better than anyone, worse in fact.

    And, no, I’ve got a consistent sense of outrage. I just hold you to the same standards as I do everyone else, and you think you’re entitled to different ones. Sorry, you’re not. No one is.

    Your prejudice is against anyone and any organization you consider liberal. It is based entirely on stereotypes and is unjust and ugly.

    Torture has been proved over and over again to produce false confessions. It not only destroys those it is done to. It destroys those who do such acts to other human beings. After doing such things, they cannot distinguish between right and wrong on the basis of anything but orders. Any other moral system would and does condemn them.

    By the way, the tide is turning towards punishing the torturers. I wonder what you will have to say when that happens. Or will you find it necessary to go into hiding yourself, like so many Germans did after WWII. You could always become a mercenary, I suppose. Or maybe you like Argentina.

    That creed is a bunch of crap, commiting the soldier to abandoning his personal sense of what is right and what is wrong, and it is always evil to ask that of a human. You are no guardian of the American way of life if you approve of torture.

    1. dcjnor,

      “You’re prejudiced”, “you’re an ugly person”, “you should be a mercenary”…..waaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!

      What a drama queen. I bet your keyboard is soaking wet.

      Au Contraire. I’m willing to kill on the basis of a violence-laden theocracy and the practitioners who want to dress us (and you) in a Burqua, make us bow to Mecca six times a day, behead ‘unbelievers’, and replace Western Civilization with a Caliphate. You commiserate with Islamic ideology. That is ugliness in its most vile form, and sycophantic, to boot.

      You have a ‘consistent sense of outrage’, alright. Heh.

      The torture used against slimeballs like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Muhammed Hussein abu Zubaida proves you wrong, my dear. The information we got resulted in successfully thwarting innurmerable attacks. For a method that’s supposedly ‘unsuccessful’ we’ve sure had a lot of success.
      Waterboarding Khalid Shaikh Mohammad Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

      I can’t seem to muster up a whole lot of angst over the CIA’s dunking of those slimy mutherfuckers.

      Goodness gracious, even the liberal WaPo acknowledges the success:

      Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques “led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.” KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that “information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave.’ ” In other words, without enhanced interrogations, there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York.

      You liberal pansies are so wrapped around the axle over the poor, hapless muslim terrorists. There’s a few things you overlooked: What got them a trip to GITMO and the knowlege of terrorist plots endangering thousands of people. I get your mindset, though: Leaving them to commit acts of terrorism is okay, using methods to extract that information, is “immoral”. That’s a good example of “moral relativism”.

      The tide turned against them, sweetpea.

      I can hardly wait to witness the meltdown you’ll have along with the rest of the leftwing moonbat brigade, when you finally realize that Obama won’t prosecute anyone, because he can’t.
      Aside from the fact that several members of the Democratic Party knew about the interrogation methods,
      Obama knows that if he allows prosecution he will have to release the classified information gleaned from the interrogations, which will prove they were sucessful. Instead, he’ll try to politicize the intelligence because the truth would be inconvenient. The whole attempt to blame Bush and denounce what turned out to be productive interrogations, will blow up in his face.

      The Soldier’s creed is something a pogue like you could never achieve, let alone appreciate. It embodies the principles, values, and dedication of people far better than you. People who protect our way of life. It takes a special sort of ingrate to disparage people who go into harms way to protect democracy. Talk about being full of crap, but I expect nothing less from a liberal. You’re a piece of work.

      I am a guardian of the American way of life, not some idiotic vision of an Islamic (or socialist) World Order. I’m so glad you’re in England.

      I’m not hiding. I’m right here, and I’m staying.

      Keep crying.

      SFC MAC

  11. Yes, I’m standing on the moral high ground. Sorry you don’t recognize it as such, but the fact that you don’t explains a lot of your inner ugliness.
    Doesn’t matter which moral system you use. They all include the Golden Rule, of which not killing is a obvious correlary.

    I think YOU need to make a amends for the harm you’ve done.

    Of course you know why I come back to Susan Boyle. The subject is predjudice, prejudgement, of which you have shown no end in this exchange. The fact that it seems to excape you as pertinent over and over again is pure denial.

    And back you go to the “I’m no worse than so and so,” defense. It didn’t work when you were five, and it doesn’t work now. It especially doesn’t work regarding the US (as represented by its soldiers) which takes every opportunity to put itself forward as an example of a country that lives up to higher standards. Why do you make it so obvious that you did not and do not intend to operate to any higher standards at all?

    1. dcjnor,

      I see you’re in the midst of another crying jag.

      Your ‘moral relativism’, doesn’t put you anywhere near high moral ground. You’re on a pile of crap a mile high.
      You’re a typical liberal effete with a selective list of ‘outrages’; depending on who offends your ‘sensibilites’. Too bad the Islamic terrorists you sympathize with don’t have any “Golden Rule” in their doctrine.

      I helped do a lot of harm to the enemy. I did my duty as a Soldier and Intelligence Analyst; to stop Islamic scumbags dead in their tracks. No amends necessary. You should be hitting your knees and praying to whatever ‘god’ you worship that there are Soldiers on the frontlines protecting your right to live in freedom and spew your nonsense on a website.

      Honey, after reading the crap you’ve consistently written, there’s no “predjudice” involved. You showed exactly who and what you are with your very first post. You left absolutely no room for doubt. You come across as a petulant little kid, spouting the peurile “I know what I am, but what are you”, because she has nothing left as an “argument”. My gawd, you are pathetic.

      You’re a liberal bed-wetter who has less of a problem with Islamic terrorists and the carnage they inflict, than what it takes to stop them.

      Oh, and just a few news items for ya:

      Democratic members of both the House and Senate intelligence committees who were briefed on interrogation techniques.

      To date, press reports have revealed the names of six legislators who were briefed on the CIA torture program in 2002-2003: Democratic representatives Jane Harman (California) and Pelosi, Democratic senators Bob Graham (Florida) and John D. (Jay) Rockefeller (West Virginia), Republican Representative Porter Goss (Florida) and Republican Senator Pat Roberts (Kansas). Goss was subsequently made head of the CIA and was serving in that post when the tapes were destroyed in 2005.

      Those methods proved to be very successful. Just a few examples of who got what they deserved:

      Al-Qaeda scumbag Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. They dunked his smelly ass after his capture. They got lots of information out of him.
      Some of his accomplishments include: planning the 9-11 attacks that killed 3,000 in New York, Washington DC and Pennsylvania, the first World Trade Center attack in 1993, the Operation Bojinka plot, an aborted 2002 attack on Los Angeles’ U.S. Bank Tower, the Bali nightclub bombings, the failed bombing of American Airlines Flight 63, the Millennium Plot, and the murder of Daniel Pearl.

      Zayn Abidin Muhammed Hussein abu Zubaida, the first high-ranking al-Qaeda member captured after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, broke in less than a minute after he was subjected to the technique and began providing interrogators with information that led to the disruption of several planned attacks, said John Kiriakou, who served as a CIA interrogator in Pakistan.

      The waterboarding of Abu Zubaydah got him to talk in less than 35 seconds. The technique, which critics say is torture, probably disrupted “dozens” of planned al-Qaida attacks, said John Kiriakou, a leader of the team that captured Zubaydah, a major al-Qaida figure.

      When it comes to prosecuting Bush-era officials, Obama doesn’t want to open that Pandora’s Box, believe me. An investigation would produce documents proving just how effective the techniques were, and how many plots and attacks were prevented in this country, alone. Even a dunce like him can figure that out.

      Until they were caught, they were in the process of killing as many infidels as possible for “Allah”.
      I don’t give a fuck if they have to force feed a terrorist cockholster an ocean full of water to get information. The tactic works. It saves American lives.

      I fought to protect my country from batshit crazy Islamists who would gladly subject everyone (including you) to their brutal theocracy, or better yet, kill you for not converting to their ‘peaceful religion’.
      I’ve said this before: The so-called ‘standards’ of the Eurotrash involve jeering from the sidelines while America does the heavy lifting. If you think you’re more able and ‘morally superior’ to take on the job of basically being a world cop, then step up to the plate, mate.
      Otherwise, at least act like your worth the sacrifice.

      This is the Army standard:

      The Soldier’s Creed
      I am an American Soldier.
      I am a Warrior and a member of a team.
      I serve the people of the United States, and live the Army Values.
      I will always place the mission first.
      I will never accept defeat.
      I will never quit.
      I will never leave a fallen comrade.
      I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills.
      I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.
      I am an expert and I am a professional.
      I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.
      I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.
      I am an American Soldier.

      Sweetpea, I’m better than ‘so and so’.

      SFC MAC

  12. You didn’t even read Mark Twain’s War Prayer. It’s a story, not a poem. Do you really think God holds you to a lower moral standard than he holds others because you’re an American soldier rather than an Irani one? Delusion. I expect you to live up to standards of behavior defined in treaties the US has signed and you have not.

    The catcalls show the same brand of prejudice you have shown many many times on even less basis in this exchange, and they show an ugliness of the soul inside those who did it like your own inside ugliness.

    Make amends for killing, period, and for the results of those killings in lives as valuable as those of the people YOU care about. Killing under any circumstances without repentence and the amends that confirm its genuineness is a mortal sin and your soul is forfeit.

    A thousand for a DC protest is indeed minimal. Pitiful and ignorant. More have come out for memorials of traffic victims.

    By the way, the US started the war in Iraq. Iraq did not attack the US. Afghanistan didn’t either. 20 men, mostly Saudi did.

    1. dcjnor,
      This is almost too easy.

      Yes, I have read Twain’s “story” aka “prayer”. It had to do with ‘seeking god’s blessing’ to ‘tear the enemy to bloody shreds’, ‘lay waste to their homes’ etc. Amen. Similarly, muslim homicide bombers yell “Allah U Akbar” before they blow themselves and everyone around them to smithereens. Not as lengthy as Twain’s sarcastic admonition, but you get the gist.

      That’s not moral high ground you’re standing on, sweetpea. It’s just a big ol’ pile of crap.

      By the way, I’m agnostic.

      I have no idea why you’re fixated on the pre-singing treatment of Susan Boyle. It has no bearing on this argument, except to demonstrate what a whiner you are when it comes to bona fide criticism of your conspiracy theories and doing what it takes to defeat enemies of Western civilization. I’ve debunked them all. Put on your big girl panties and deal with it.

      “Amends”….you’re a piece of work. You think the United States should ‘make amends’ for killing. Wow. That’s interesting. You’d think we were the only ones on this planet to ever engage in mortal conflict. Not only that, but you demand “amends” for retaliation on foreign aggression and protecting allies.

      Millions were killed in Russia thanks to communists like Stalin, who slaughtered an estimated 7,000,000 during the ‘collectivization’ and forced famine 1927-1933.

      The Japanese slaughtered thousands across the Pacific and Indo-China. The Chinese slaughtered millions during Mao’s reign. Genocide across Africa is an every day occurance.

      Muslims don’t share your touchy-feely approach to the value of life. They use kids for human shields and blow them up along with everyone else. And in a touching display of equal opportunity for women, they’re allowing females to strap on bombs and wade into the crowds at the marketplace to do their bit for ‘allah’. They also had no problem with taking plane loads of innocent men, women and children to their deaths along with innocent men and women working in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In your mind it’s probably justified because after all, according to Ward Churchill, the World Trade Center was full of “little Eichmanns”, and some ‘warmongers’ in the Pentagon got what they deserved. The muslims have yet to make amends.

      And speaking of ‘amends’, the United States pumped millions of dollars into the re-construction of Germany, Japan, and Italy after WWII. Europe occasionally shows it’s gratitude for America’s sacrifice by reminding us of their ‘moral superiority’. That includes the ones who started WWII.

      I couldn’t give a shit less about America’s enemies or their families; historical or modern.
      The collective Islamic culture declared war on the West. Ignore that at your own peril. I care about the lives of my fellow Americans. (You’re not American anyway, are ya?) My loyalty, dedication, principles, and convictions lie with the United States. Not some idiotic vision of a ‘New World Order’, or Obamster’s feckless ‘negotiate without preconditions’ approach to malefactors.

      Using your logic, we should have never attacked Germany or Italy, because they never attacked us; Japan did. When you go after an enemy, you destroy them and their allies. We should have taken out Hussein the first time I was in Iraq back in 1991. It would have saved us a second trip. Your remark about Afghanistan proves how much you know about the terrorist network in the Middle East; in a nutshell, ZILCH.
      Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda base of operations was in Afghanistan, along with the Taliban. That’s where the 9/11 hijackers trained and were personally selected by Bin Laden.
      Terrorists are bred, trained, funded, supported, and indoctrinated in every Islamic nation-state in the region. It’s like this: Pick one. I’d have taken out Saudi Arabia on 9/12 along with probably Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Sudan. The Wahabists in Riyadh not only placate the extremist Imams to keep them in check, but several members of the royal family finance terrorist training and activity. Saudi Arabia should have been turned into a parking lot right along with the other aforementioned countries.

      You only used D.C. as an example, but did not mention the rest of the demonstrations across the U.S.

      Estimates that in Atlanta, as many as 20,000 people took to the streets, in Washington state, more than 5,000, in Phoenix, Arizona, more than 5,000, in San Antonio, between 4,000 and 5,000, in Lansing, Michigan, between 3,000 and 4,000. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.,2933,516920,00.html

      Selectivity on your part, again.

      You really should check in on the Tea Updates:

      I eagerly await your next hissy fit.

      SFC MAC

    1. dcjnor,

      I read that poem years ago. It’s as funny as the first time I read it.

      SFC MAC

  13. Re: Spain. Not in the least. The torturers have been exposed. The hypocracy of demainding more of lower level Nazi soldiers than we do or ourselves is clear. The wrong have been brought to light if not yet punished, just as some Nazis excaped punishment. Their souls are lost, unless they themselves come forward to make such amends as they can. As is yours. As was Patton’s.

    The tea parties have been exposed for what they are. pitiful and ignorant, as shown from my references.

    If you recall, I was the first to identify the catcalls being for someone they had not yet heard sing, and thus illustrative of predjudice, thus relevant to your own baseless prejudgements in their great numbers in this exchange.

    Yes, I do feel the same way. But there is a difference between killing in defense of your homes and families on your own territory and killing and damaging families as an invasion force, particularly when that invasion is based on lies.

    1. dcjnor,

      The lame attempt at the Bush=Hitler crap is just as ridiculous now as it was when he was in office. If you expect me to be upset over what it takes to extract information that reveals enemy operations and saves the lives of Americans and the Soldiers sworn to protect them, you are sadly mistaken, sweetpea.

      Lookie what happens when we let them go:\

      Here’s a funny story regarding Spain and Biden:

      Cut-&-Runner Joe Biden thanked Spain’s Prime Minister and Cut-&-Runner José Luis Zapatero in Chile yesterday for all of his help in Iraq. (Zapatero withdrew Spanish troops from Iraq when he was elected, in 2004.)

      That Joe. He’s a real card, doncha think?

      ‘Their souls are lost…’ My gawd can you possibly be any more pitiful? Make amends for what? Retaliation against Islamofascism? For fighting back? For protecting our freedom and security in the face of a world-wide Islamic terrorist threat? You have got to be kidding.

      One of your Tea Party references includes this little snippet:

      When thousands of people in all 50 states assemble to protest government policy, you might suppose that this is news. Not according to the coverage on the front pages of the Washington Post, the New York Times, or the Wall Street Journal. The “tea party” rallies went unmentioned. In Washington, D.C., despite temperatures in the 40s and a driving rain, about a thousand demonstrators assembled across from the White House on April 15. The front page of the Times the next day found space for a big story with accompanying pictures of public demonstrations in Kabul, Afghanistan, but not a word about the American protestors.
      ……The tea parties demonstrated that resistance to big government persists in the hearts of many Americans.

      You’d better start reading your “counterpoint” sources a bit more closely if you intend to prove me wrong. Otherwise, you’re just making a fool of yourself…..again.

      You were the first to use a “catcall” reference in an attempt to draw some kind of convoluted comparison between the way she was initially treated before she sang, and the fact that I hurt your widoo feewings. The trouble is, I have more respect for Susan Boyle than I have for you. At least she proved herself when she sang. You get the point?

      Ah, yes. The old “it’s okay to kill the occupier” argument. That would carry weight if it were say, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, or the German invasion of France, or the Japanese invasion of Nanking. You lefties tend to “forget” who started this war, and from which region of the world they come.
      Last I checked it was muslim fanatics from the Middle East.

      Lies? Oh yeah, the WMDs we found, Hussein’s terrorist connections, the al Qaeda and Taliban training camps in Afghanistan…all lies!
      Oh and lookie here. An al Qaeda founder puts the blame where it belongs:

      You need to spend more time getting your facts straight and focusing your liberal indignation on those who really deserve it.

      SFC MAC

  14. Yeah, sure, when anti-war protests had no trouble bringing out hundreds of thousands in single cities.

    The catcalls were for someone they hadn’t heard sing yet.

    As I said, anyone who is proud of having taken lives and hurt women and children is seriously twisted. Please do go read Mark Twain’s War Prayer and reexamine your morality.

    1. dcjnor,

      The Tea Parties are gaining momentum, much to the chargrin of the bad-mouthing lefties. They are really crapping their pants. Their dismissive, pejorative language is what we call ‘whistling as you walk by the grave yard’.
      Look at the difference in coverage, as well. As I said, if it were left-over 60’s radicals burning GW in effigy, the MSM would have another collective orgasm.

      The catcalls were for someone they hadn’t heard sing yet.

      No shit. I already made that point, but you do not read.

      ……anyone who is proud of having taken lives and hurt women and children is seriously twisted…and reexamine your morality.

      Really? Tell me, Ms. Selective moralist, do you feel the same way toward the millions of women and children hurt and killed by the Islamofascist enemy? I don’t see you bitching about all the carnage by the ‘peaceful practitioners of Islam’. Care to keep score? I’m supposed to feel sorry for helping to introduce their muslim equivalent of a ‘breadwinner’ (i.e. terrorist bomb-making, AK47 shooting, kill all the ‘infidels’) husband/father/brother to hell?

      I don’t think so.

      Here’s one of my favorite quotes:

      I am a soldier, I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight.
      – General George Patton Jr

      Lady, your moral compass is broke.

      Still depressed about Spain, I see. 🙂

      SFC MAC

  15. My arguments have failed on no one except those like you whose minds are closed. The reason for your closed mind is clear, not as a result of what I have written,but as a result of what you have written. You didn’t even get the meaning of the Bitain’s Got Talent clip. No one made fun of an excellent singer. They made fun of someone they had prejudged, just as you have prejudged any number of very excellent people in this exchange.

    Feeling good about yourself for taking lives is truly twisted. If being a soldier made you this ugly inside, then you should never have been one.

    Sorry, your little tea parties didn’t even make the news here at all, and I hear they didn’t make much news over there, either, despite being hyped by FOX for weeks on end. Attendance was tiny. Typical of you to use a blog as a reference. I, on the other hand, will use news reports.,0,1017478.story

    1. dcjnor,

      Your “sources” like your cognitive reading skills, are lacking. The Tea Parties accumulated tens of thousands of attendees across the U.S. But given the sad fact that you do not read, coupled with the absence of coverage in Europe (as well as the leftwing American media), it’s not surprising that you don’t know what your talking about.

      Go to this link:

      Scroll down through the entire post. Go to each one of the links listed in each update. Read the articles and news reports. Look at the photos. “Tiny” does not describe the size and scope of the protests. It does however, describe your mind.

      The Left is trying their damndest to minimize American’s anger over the socialist abyss being created by Obama and his merry band of nihilists. We will not back down. During GW’s eight year tenure the Left kept insisting that “dissent is patriotic”. Consider us true patriots.

      As for the cat-calls on “Britain’s got talent”, your hearing must be very deficient. Listen to the sarcastic whistles when she took the stage. That my dear, is what I referred to.

      I’m proud to be a former Soldier and war veteran. I and my fellow Soldiers have done more to preserve your way of life than some arm-chair leftwingnut critic who does nothing but jeer from the sidelines while others do the heavy lifting.

      Spain’s decision must really have you in a funk. 🙂

      SFC MAC

  16. Congratulations on killing their children’s and wives’ dreams, too. Read Mark Twain’s War Prayer. You have no more right to life than those you killed on THEIR territory.

    1. djcnor,

      After that sorrowful little speech you gave in your last post, signing off with a tearful:

      “I will no longer provide you opportunities to make the world a more ugly place. You will have to continue that on your own.”

      I figured I would never be “graced” with your presence again. Back for more? Ok.

      Let me be succinct about the Islamic terrorists we killed: I couldn’t give a shit less about them, their wives, or their kids. I care as much about them as we did the Nazis, Fascist Italians, and Imperialist Japanese in WWII. That should put things in perspective for you. They started this war, we will finish it.

      SFC MAC

  17. Of course I believe Spain has legal standing to prosecute the war crimes of the Bush administration, just as I believe the allies had juridiction at Nuremberg, and just as at Nuremberg, the “I only did what I was told to do,” defense is totally inadequate. I could not believe that I heard a US Senator giving that defense this morning on the news. Do you truly think the torturers of the concentration camps and the designers of their killing programs should not have been prosecuted? All humanity has the responsibility to act against such people.

    Unfortunately, due to your denegration of the Red Cross among others of your positions, I have come to believe that you are the kind of amoral human being who would be perfectly comfortable with being one of the people who carry out such tortures. This makes you a failure as a human being. I am sorry for you that whatever happened to make you such an ugly person inside happened, but knowing that others have faced similar experiences without becoming ugly inside, I must call that a personal failure on your part as well. I understand why you would put up the defenses you have against proven facts, and denegrate the best of this society. To maintain a decent opinion of yourself, you must attempt to tear down others. You are exactly the kind of person who snickered and cat-called Susan Boyle:

    (I don’t think direct links are allowed any more, but you have simply to google Susan Boyle and look at the 7 minute version.)

    You are one of the killers of dreams. I will no longer provide you opportunities to make the world a more ugly place. You will have to continue that on your own.

    1. dcjnor,

      Just a note before I dispense with your latest tripe:

      The nationwide Tea Parties were a rousing success. Tens of thousands of fed-up Americans have been turning out to protest Obamster’s socialist oppressive tax/spend policies that screw working Americans out of trillions of dollars for bailouts and pork barrel projects.

      Check it out:

      Now, back to Europe.

      As for Spain, your hopes have been dashed to pieces.

      Not that it mattered. Spain is an irrelevant country on the modern world stage.

      And oh, lookie here. Another news item of interest, just for you:

      Obama says CIA officials who used harsh interrogation tactics during will not be prosecuted.,0,2361699.story

      We’ll see how long it takes you nutroots to explode over that one. Will it be the requisite 24 hour hissy fit just to prove you have “principles”, or will you join Fritz Hollings to demand that he be tried for war crimes? You have a lot of gall comparing our counter-terrorism methods against Islamofascist scumbags to the Nazis, but then, that’s the refuge of the Left when logic fails.

      More proof of just how stupid and craven you can be, especially the Dutch, who should know better:

      A fake jury that exonerated Usama bin Laden from the Sept. 11 terror attacks following a televised mock trial on a popular Dutch program sends a “disturbing” message to the world and fuels conspiracy theories, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani and other former U.S. prosecutors told

      In just 30 minutes, the jury of three men and two women who appeared on the Dutch show “Devil’s Advocate” ruled last Wednesday that there was no proof bin Laden masterminded the 9/11 attacks or that he remains the head of Al Qaeda. The television jury did acknowledge, however, that bin Laden is a terrorist.,2933,516195,00.html

      Their “trial” was chock full of batshit crazy conspiracy therories. Sound familiar?

      With all of the Islamic extremist riots, vandalism, and murder, you’d think the Dutch population would have more sense. Especially after this:

      The murder of Dutch movie director Theo van Gogh in November 2004 came just two months after his highly controversial film, Submission – about the abuse of Muslim women – was shown on national TV in Holland. Radical Islamist Mohammed Bouyeri, 27, has now been jailed for life for his murder after confessing to the killing, claiming he acted out of religious conviction.

      The minute the Red Cross stepped over the line from ‘humanitarian services’ to politics, they became just another partisan faction.

      Amoral? Lady, you’re so full of moral relativism it’s not funny. As far as you’re concerned, America and those who defend it are the sole source of ‘evil’ in the world while the real despots, thugs, and malefactors get a pat on the back.

      I don’t have to dig very far to “maintain a decent opinion” of myself. I’m a former Soldier. You’re the type who would never be caught dead on a patriotic thread, showing appreciation for the sacrifice of American troops—people far better than you. Instead you wallow in anti-American malfeasance because it makes you feel better about your craven behavior. Find solace where you can.

      Using an extraneous reference about an insult to a wonderful singer on “Britain’s got talent”, is just so you. Oh, please. Let me call you a waaaaaaaaaambulance. Such angst! Such maudlin crap. That analogy, like the DNA statistics you used to “prove” your stance on “stolen elections’, fell flat. Throughout this thread I’ve met your looney assertions head on with facts, and in the process, I hurt your widoo feewings. Awww. I don’t pity you; I simply let your own words prove just how pitiful you are.

      The killer of dreams….if you could only see the grin on my face. As a Soldier, I helped kill Islamofascist enemies, and their ‘dreams’.

      Speaking of failure: Your entire spiel on this thread was an excercise in clichéd leftwing propaganda.

      Epic fail.


      SFC MAC

  18. Funny you should mention Spain. Here’s something that came through today.

    Bush Six Likely to Be Indicted

    “Spanish prosecutors have decided to press forward with a criminal investigation targeting former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and five top associates over their role in the torture of five Spanish citizens held at Guantánamo,” according to Scott Horton, law professor and writer for Harper’s Magazine and The American Lawyer.

    “We are expecting a decision this week,” the Spanish prosecutor’s office told the Associated Press on April 14.

    In an extraordinary conclusion to a report by the International Committee of the Red Cross that was just released, the Red Cross recommended that:
    “the US authorities investigate all allegations of ill-treatment and take steps to punish the perpetrators, where appropriate, and to prevent such abuses from happening again.”

    The Red Cross report outlines the capture and interrogation and torture of “high value” detainees at CIA “black sites.'” The report evidences criminal conduct carried out by the Bush Administration.

    Coming from the Red Cross, this presents a major obstacle to those who would seek to block prosecution or suggest that the conduct carried out by Bush officials and the CIA could be considered lawful by any means.

    This report presents direct evidence of the brutality and illegality of the Bush/Cheney Administration’s torture regime. The officials’ actions constitute violations of international law including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), which the United States ratified in 1992, and the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, which the United States ratified in 1994. Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949 prohibits torture of prisoners and Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention similarly protects civilian detainees.

    The Red Cross’ demand for prosecution echoes the call from Ramsey Clark and the IndictBushNow movement: “Indiscriminate killing of civilians, summary execution, arbitrary seizures of people and property, secret unlimited detention and torture have been authorized and widely practiced.”

    Care to denigrate the Red Cross?

    1. dcjnor,

      ROFLMAO! Girl, if you believe that Spain has any legal, moral, or factual leg to stand on, you’re even more delusional than I thought.

      1. Spain is ruled by an extreme leftwing government that thought it could placate Islamic terrorists by pulling out of Iraq and basically, kissing their ass. You saw how well that worked out.

      2. Some history about one of the “Plaintiffs”:

      ……For instance, the initial complaint was submitted by Gonzalo Boye of the Association for the Dignity of Prisoners. Before becoming a human-rights lawyer, Boye was convicted of being a member of the Revolutionary Left Movement terrorist organization and participating in the kidnapping of a Spanish businessman. Boye previously filed a complaint against six Israeli officials for ordering an air strike in July 2002 that killed a senior Hamas operative as well as 14 Palestinian civilians. More recently, he has been assisting a panel hired by the Arab League that meets with Hamas officials to investigate Israeli “war crimes” during the campaign in Gaza earlier this year.

      In other words, the primary litigant is a fucking leftist kook.

      2. The Magistrate is a fruitbat as well:

      ……He filed this complaint with Baltasar Garzon, an activist magistrate famous for championing the “universal jurisdiction” of Spanish courts. That magistrate is now asking a Spanish prosecutor to bring criminal charges on this matter against former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, four other former Bush administration lawyers, and me.

      The allegation is not that any of us tortured anyone. And it is not that any of us even directed anyone to commit torture. The allegation is that, when we advised President George W. Bush on the Geneva Conventions and detainee interrogations, our interpretations were wrong — in the view of the disapproving Spaniards. According to the complaint, these wrong interpretations encouraged the president to make decisions that led to torture.

      The Spanish magistrate apparently believes that it can be a crime for American officials to offer the wrong kind of advice to a president of the United States and, furthermore, it can be a crime punishable by a Spanish court.

      The attempt to resurrect the Spanish Inquistion is a sorry joke. Don’t hold your breath.

      I’m still waiting for the ‘arrest warrant’ for the Obamessiah. Speaking of the Bamster, Democrat Fritz Hollings seems to think he should be charged with war crimes:

      3. The International Red Cross? Oh yeah, that organization has paired up with Amnesty International, a leftwing group with a very selective list of outrages.,2933,157733,00.html

      Consider them denigrated.

      4. Ramsey Clark: moonbat.

      You switched back to the “torture” shit for a couple of minutes. Care to rehash your “stolen election” argument, again?

      You’re running out of steam and excuses.

      Keep trying. I’ll just keep laughing at you.

      SFC MAC

    1. dcjnor,

      Oh, here’s some more on ACORN you won’t like: (voter fraud, Obama’s connections, FBI investigation, etc)

      Gawd, I could fill an encyclopedia with all the crimes they commit.

      So, if the college kiddies want ACORN as an occupational choice, they better be prepared to be investigated along with the rest of the frauds.

      SFC MAC

      PS: You dropped the subject of Obama/Spain/rendition. Figures.

  19. Any cutting is censoring, especially cutting of those of the 208 sources of Kennedy’s article I have not yet posted. You continue your insults, so…..

    1. djcnor,

      Any cutting I do is because you’re reposting the same items from a half-baked Robert Kennedy Jr. conspiracy article in Rolling Stone, and Freeman’s concocted statistics. You’re simply spamming with hackneyed left wing citations. All of them have been debunked repeatedly in my previous responses. Trying to repost 208 “sources” from the same debunked article is not a very convincing argument.

      Anyone who pulls something like that is insulting my intelligence and deserves every dig they get.

      Having said that, sweetpea:

      Guess what? Another liberal site debunkes the ‘stolen election’ myth:

      And make sure you read this; it’s a dissection of Kennedy’s blather by Moritz College of Law at Ohio State University:

      Happy reading, and do try to come up with something other than Kennedy’s tripe in Rolling Stone to support your delusions.

      SFC MAC

  20. Just had to post this:

    Breaking news: Indictment of Bush Officials May Come in Days
    Newsweek Breaks Shocking New Revelations About Disappeared Persons
    From Pinochet to Bush, the Path to Prosecution

    Publicizing the indictment movement requires placing newspaper ads, organizing national call-in days to pressure Congressional representatives, intensive media work, teach-ins and educational forums. Please consider taking a moment right now to make a donation to this new movement for the indictment of Bush.

    * The imminent indictment in Spanish courts of former officials of the Bush Administration is being applauded by civil and human rights organizations and legal scholars. The popular wave of support for indictment of Bush officials will inevitably lead to Bush himself.

    * Newsweek Magazine blew open more shocking news about Bush’ system of kidnapping, secret prisons and torture. A secret Red Cross report indicates that many kidnapped and tortured people were turned into “disappeared persons” by the CIA under instructions from Bush and Cheney. A former Bush administration official told Newsweek’s Michael Isikoff that the information had been hidden from the Red Cross. “The majority of the people in the CIA program are unaccounted for. We don’t know what happened to them,” a human rights investigator told Isikoff.

    * Like Bush, former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet, thought his power would shield him from criminal prosecution when his regime kidnapped and tortured and assassinated individuals who became known as the “disappeared.” It was when Spanish courts brought indictments against Pinochet that everything changed. As Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights said, “the importance of this investigation [in Spain] can not be understated. Contrary to statements by some, the Spanish investigations are not ‘symbolic.’ Just ask Augusto Pinochet, who was stranded under house arrest in England and who ultimately faced criminal charges in Chile because of the pressure of the Spanish courts. If and when arrest warrants are issued, 24 countries in Europe are obligated to enforce them. The world is getting smaller for the torture conspirators.”

    Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General has called for the prosecution of Bush and other high officials in the United States, stating, “The greatest danger arising from impunity for President Bush and his cohorts would be that all subsequent officials will feel secure in committing the same crimes and the people, having failed to compel impeachment for such open, notorious and egregious crimes, will feel even more helpless to prevent them. Ultimately the power and the responsibility to prevent criminal acts by government is with the people.”

    1. dcjnor,


      Spain: A socialist government that tucked its tail between its legs and fled Iraq after the Islamic terrorist attack in Madrid, only to be attacked again afterward.
      That’s gratitude for you. Aside from that, Spain seems to think it can supercede our laws, sovereignty, and Constitution (even more than Obama has lately) and ‘indict’ those it deems “war criminals”.
      Europeans expend more effort targeting counter terrorism efforts than on pursuing the muslim fanatics bent on unleashing terrorism within their own borders.

      Just a few examples of idiotic Spanish hubris:

      They issued an “arrest warrant” for three U.S. Soldiers who, in the line of duty, had to fire on a Baghdad hotel during the war. Their “crime” according to the Spanish judge, was killing a Spanish journalist who happened to be in the hotel at the time. Sorry ’bout his luck, but shit happens. BTW: The Soldiers were never arrested, by anyone.,2933,172713,00.html

      Spain’s highest court ruled that cases of genocide committed abroad could be judged in Spain even if no Spanish citizens have been involved.

      Tell you what sweetpea, when Spain does anything that even comes close to being morally, militarily, or legally superior to anyone, let alone the United States, I might give it a modicum of attention.

      Bush’s system of kidnapping, secret prisons and torture”?

      Yep, you’ve got one hell of a case of BDS. The proper term is “rendition”. This refers to the process of nabbing terrorists and taking them to facilities other than GITMO in different countries, for interrogation.
      So what? I have absolutely no problem with doing what it takes to save American lives.

      Having said that:

      The sole person other than US pilot trainees we know to have been waterboarded is Khalid Sheik Muhhamed. Khalid broke within minutes (the practice involves wrapping the face in towels and then pouring on large quantities of water.) He was waterboarded for one reason alone: he was involved in the 9/11 attack, both preparation and execution, and authorities needed to know if any other such attacks were in store.

      Spain….don’t make me laugh.

      Nice try on the Bush/Pinochet comparison. Then again, I’d expect nothing less from a rag like Newsweek or a leftist sycophant such as yourself.

      Oh, and by the way, looks like your boy Obamster is gonna keep the rendition program going:

      Under executive orders issued by Obama recently, the CIA still has authority to carry out what are known as renditions, secret abductions and transfers of prisoners to countries that cooperate with the United States.,0,4661244.story?page=1

      I wonder if Spain will issue an arrest warrant for THE ONE. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

      Ramsey Clark: A mouthpiece for leftwing groups like A.N.S.W.E.R. and a conspiracy moonbat extrordinaire. Another 9/11 “troofer” who thinks George W. Bush crashed the planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the Pennsylvania field….probably by remote control. He, like Jimmy Carter, never met a dictator he didn’t like:

      The man is mentally ill. It figures you’d think he’s ‘credibile’.

      Keep the laughs coming.

      SFC MAC

  21. By the way, censoring parts of comments just shows you for what you are. Rightists always eventually turn to censoring contrary views.

  22. Oh dear. More insults. Well, then just keep reading more of the 208 references from this site:

    (By the way, anyone following the timeline will find it clear that your objections are answered. But continue your apoplexy.

    25 Evaluation of Edison/Mitofsky Election System 2004; prepared by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International for the National Election Pool (NEP), January 19, 2005, Page 59.

    26 Jonathan D. Simon, J.D., and Ron P. Baiman, Ph.D., ”The 2004 Presidential Election: Who Won the Popular Vote? An Examination of the Comparative Validity of Exit Poll and Vote Count Data.”, December 29, 2004, P. 9

    27 Analysis by Steven F. Freeman.

    28) Freeman and Bleifuss, pg. 134

    29 Jim Rutenberg, ”Report Says Problems Led to Skewing Survey Data,” The New York Times, November 5, 2004.

    1. dcjnor,

      My responses to your repetitive “sources” (which I’ve thoroughly adressed in previous comments) as promised:

      Rolling Stone: Debunked. Include all 208 of the (snicker) “references”. They’re redundant and lack proof outside of contrived conspiracy theories by leftwing sore losers.

      Freeman: Debunked.

      Mitofsky: Debunked. Another leftwing “progressive” site that contains the same run of the mill conspiracy theories, sans opposing views of course.

      New York Times: Already presented a thorough response based on their investigation and conclusion that Bush won.

      Links right back at ya:

      More food for thought:

      Attention simply had to be switched to Ohio, the more target—rich environment for leftists—in—denial. First, Bush won it by less than Florida. Second, there is nothing second. The ritualized rabble—rousing by Reverend Shakedown, the wild, fantastic charges of electronic vote fraud, the inevitable trotting out of Old Reliable, Republican suppression of minority votes—the choreography needs serious revamping. It’s long past time for the Democrats to produce an actual flesh—and—blood human who can say: My name is ___; I live at ___; I attempted to register in the ___ precinct; I couldn’t do it, for reasons that are illegal. That, in a nutshell, is what voter suppression would look like. Over a million votes suppressed and nobody can find one credible person to explain how it happened.

      Keep trying.

      SFC MAC

  23. That condescending “sweetpea” bit will get you nothing but more relevant references, which for the meanwhile, come from here:

    20 Matt Kelley, ”U.S. Money has Helped Opposition in Ukraine,” Associated Press, December 11, 2004.

    Daniel Williams, ”Court Rejects Ukraine Vote; Justices Cite Massive Fraud in Runoff, Set New Election,” The Washington Post, December 4, 2004.

    22 Evaluation of Edison/Mitofsky Election System 2004; prepared by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International for the National Election Pool (NEP), January 19, 2005, Page 3.

    24 Tim Golden, ”Election Near, Mexicans Question the Questioners,” The New York Times, August 10, 1994.

    1. dcjnor,

      You’ll notice that some of your “references” are missing. I’m doing this to demonstrate just how much you keep re-hashing the old arguments by Rolling Stone, (what a joke!) and the self-serving leftwing ‘statistician’ Freeman. I will delete any further references to them, and simply dissect any NEW attempts at the “stolen election” obsession.

      The accusation about “U.S. influence” in the Ukraine vote and Mitofsky’s “poll”:

      MIT political scientists Charles Stewart has pointed out, it’s not useful to compare the role of exit polls in Ukraine’s 2004 election with exit polls in the U.S race. The two elections, and the two nations, are too different to come to any meaningful conclusion from such a comparison. In Ukraine, one exit poll showed opposition candidate and eventual president Viktor Yushchenko winning 54 percent to 43 percent nationally. Mitofsky’s final national poll put Kerry at 51 percent and Bush with 48 percent. Compare this to the actual result, which had Bush at 51 percent and Kerry with 48 percent. The difference is not that significant.

      Daniel Williams: Leftwing, former U.S. correspondent for Italian dailies Manifesto, La Repubblica and Corriere della Sera. All Leftist pubs. (Again, the Ukraine accusation is debunked in the above source)

      Mexicans? Please. Your silly attempt to equate our system with the total screw-up south of the border, is lame. Very. Lame. Incidentally, you missed an interesting point in the cited article:

      Newspapers sympathetic to the Government have not been above altering the findings of opinion surveys in order to proclaim wide support for the PRI, as the governing party (which by the way, was LEFTWING) is called. Pollsters say it is almost routine for some clients to withhold publication of studies they commission if the results look bad for the Government or its party.

      Sound familiar? Gore….Kerry…

      Another point:

      During 65 years of one-party dominance, Mexico acquired a deservedly wretched reputation for electoral manipulation. Typically, the ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, helped itself to huge advantages in fund raising, media access and election supervision.

      and another:

      Pre-election reports by Civic Alliance, Mexico’s most important monitoring group….described widespread use of state resources to promote PRI candidates, large resource disparities between the PRI and other parties, and bias favoring the PRI in television coverage.

      …..Two days after the election, a United States-financed, bipartisan delegation reported that election day irregularities did not affect the voting’s outcome but, citing those same problems, declined to certify the election “free and fair.”

      Pro-democracy forces in Mexico want genuinely democratic elections, not just the absence of massive election day fraud. Reporting that glosses over major problems will only reduce the pressure for reforms. JARED KOTLER Associate for Mexico Washington Office on Latin America Washington, Sept. 27, 1994

      Looks like Mitofsky ignored the influence of the predominant leftwing party.

      Here’s some more facts to wrap your liberal mind around:

      More on the 2000 election by the Miami Herald:

      Republican George W. Bush’s victory in Florida, which gave him the White House, almost certainly would have endured even if a recount stopped by the U.S. Supreme Court had been allowed to go forward.
      In fact, a comprehensive review of 64,248 ballots in all 67 Florida counties by The Herald and its parent
      company, Knight Ridder, in partnership with USA Today, found that Bush’s slender margin of 537 votes would have tripled to 1,665 votes under the generous counting standards advocated by Democrat Al Gore.
      The newspapers’ ballot review was conducted by the public accounting firm BDO Seidman, LLP. It was designed to answer a question asked by many Americans and certain to be examined by historians:
      What would have happened if the U.S. Supreme Court had not halted the sweeping recount of undervotesballots without presidential votes detected by counting machines ordered by the Florida Supreme Court on Dec. 8, a month after the November election?

      The answer: under almost all scenarios, Bush still would have won.

      Indeed, in one of the great ironies of the bitter 2000 election, Bush’s lead would have vanished only if the recount had been conducted under severely restrictive standards advocated by some Republicans.

      Matter of fact, it was GORE that engaged in shady tactics in order to swipe votes. Between hanging chads and ‘butterfly ballots’, Al’s protests resembled a three-ring circus. He grasped at every straw he could to bring frivolous lawsuits in the state of Florida and the Supreme Court, which thankfully, called a halt to his charade.

      Confusion over the ‘butterfly ballot’, one of the excuses used by Gore in order to draw out the election, turned out to be perfectly legal and approved by the Democratic Palm Beach County election supervisor Theresa LePore.

      Right off the bat, Democrats cried foul when it appeared Gore had lost Florida, albeit by a slim margin, and they’ve been crying ever since. The 2004 election involving more Dem shenenigans in Ohio, didn’t work out so well for the le’enfant terribles, either.

      The Democratic party pulled so many illegal stunts in Florida it wasn’t even funny.

      In 2004, President Bush carried the Ohio by approximately 117,000 votes; a fact that the far left cannot accept. Instead, they invent all sorts of “problems” which supposedly occured with machinery, “disenfranchisement”, long lines, and probably the stress put on the poor, paranoid Kerry voters.

      Before you post anymore nonsense from disgruntled leftwingnut sore losers, read all about the underhanded crap the Dems pulled in Florida and Ohio. You’ll have plenty to keep you busy.

      Keep whining. I’ll just keep chipping away at your bullshit.

      SFC MAC

  24. Link all you like. Mine are facts rather than opinions. And since you continue the insults:

    14 Democratic National Committee, Voting Rights Institute, ”Democracy at Risk: The 2004 Election in Ohio”, June 22, 2005. Page 5

    15 See ”VIII. Rural Counties.”

    16 Evaluation of Edison/Mitofsky Election System 2004” prepared by Edison Media Research and Mitofksy International for the National Election Pool (NEP), January 19, 2005, Page 3

    17 This refers to data for German national elections in 1994, 1998 and 2002, previously cited by Steven F. Freeman.

    18 Dick Morris, ”Those Faulty Exit Polls Were Sabotage,” The Hill, November 4, 2004.

    19 Martin Plissner, ”Exit Polls to Protect the Vote,” The New York Times, October 17, 2004.

    1. djcnor,

      Uh, no. Wrong again. You simply regurgitate more of the same leftwing viewpoints: The DNC: Leftwing. Freeman: A leftwing member of the academic intelligentsia backing up his suppositions with self-serving “statistics”. Martin Plissner: Another leftwing hack and former CBS news director. Opinions, period. Every source you’ve provided is another leftwing conspiracy nut and sore loser who is no more capable of dealing with the facts that you. I, on the other hand, have provided proof of refutation by both sides of the political spectrum. The nihilist bastion THE NEW YORK TIMES acknowledged Bush’s wins. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The News Consortium, for instance, was comprised of numerous media outlets who conducted their own independent investigations of the 2000 recount. They ALL came to the same conclusion. BUSH WON. Shall I re-post their findings? You clearly are affected by BDS. And you still ignore all of the blatant cheating and voter fraud on the part of Democrats and their ACORN myrmidons. Denial will get you nowhere.

      I can always give you links to more of the facts that disprove each one of your “stolen election” complaints.

      Keep trying sweetpea.

      SFC MAC

  25. You continue uncivil insults, demonstrating your own lack of positive personality characteristics, all the ones you listed. Therefore:

    10 ”A Summary of the 2004 Election Day Survey; How We Voted: People, Ballots & Polling Places; A Report to the American People by the United States Election Assistance Commission”, September 2005, pg. 10.

    11 Facts mentioned in this paragraph are subsequently cited throughout the story.

    12 See Ohio’s Missing Votes

    13 Federal Election Commission, Federal Elections 2004: Election Results for the U.S. President.

    14 Democratic National Committee, Voting Rights

    1. djcnor,

      You are intellectually challenged. There’s simply no other explanation for your ignorance.

      You suffer from the same psychiatric disorder as the rest of the “stolen election” crowd: Bush Derangement Syndrome, and gawd only knows what other type of obsessive-compulsive personality disorders.

      The Democratic party in particular, is rife with power-hungry, corrupt leftwingnuts who are flushing our national security, world standing, and economy down the toilet. They are not averse to supporting some of the world’s worst scum or cavorting with radical elements like ACORN to flood the ballot boxes with fraudulent votes.

      As for links, right back at ya:


      Oh yeah, some information about our crooked Secretary of State:

      And two more LIBERAL sources regarding the Florida re-count.

      Los Angeles Times:

      If the U.S. Supreme Court had allowed Florida’s courts to finish their abortive recount of last year’s deadlocked presidential election, President Bush probably still would have won by several hundred votes, a comprehensive study of the uncounted ballots has found.

      Associated Press:

      A vote-by-vote review of untallied ballots in the 2000 Florida presidential election indicates George W. Bush would have narrowly prevailed in the partial recounts sought by Al Gore…
      Bush eventually won Florida, and thus the White House, by 537 votes out of more than 6 million cast.

      ……The new data, compiled by The Associated Press and seven other news organizations, also suggested that Gore followed a legal strategy after Election Day that would have led to defeat even if it had not been rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court.

      Care for more?

      You continue to avoid acknowleging Gore’s corrupt, dirty tactics regarding invalidating votes (overseas in particular) as well as his attempt to smear Katherine Harris.

      Demonstrate how ‘intellectual’ you really are by obsessing over real crimes and things that matter, for a change.

      SFC MAC

  26. Folks who are intelligent enough to get Ph.D.s do what they say they will do, and do not sit still for anti-intellectuals.

    1. dcjnor,

      It doesn’t take a Ph.D to demonstrate integrity, honesty, values, principles, or common sense; all of which you lack.

      Funny, how the term ‘intellectual’ is flung by liberals as if it actually carries weight for their intolerent, anti-American/pro-communist ideals. You’re no “intellectual”, my dear. You’re a pseudo-wannabe.

      Being a former Soldier, I always back up my words with action.

      SFC MAC

  27. 4. Overseas Vote Foundation, ”2004 Post Election Survey Results,” June 2005, page 11.

    5 Jennifer Joan Lee, ”Pentagon Blocks Site for Voters Outside U.S.,” International Herald Tribune, September 20, 2004.

    6 Meg Landers, ”Librarian Bares Possible Voter Registration Dodge,” Mail Tribune (Jackson County, OR), September 21, 2004.

    7 Mark Brunswick and Pat Doyle, ”Voter Registration; 3 former workers: Firm paid pro-Bush bonuses; One said he was told his job was to bring back cards for GOP voters,” Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), October 27, 2004.

    1. dcjnor,

      I see you’ve given up on trying to deny that B. Hussein Obama is a socialist and a failure, but you’re still cranking out the hackneyed leftwing sob stories on “stolen elections”. Okay.

      I’ll just combine a response to both posts:

      Liberal and Conservative sources for your edification:

      1. 2004 Ohio vote confirmed by the New York Times December 29, 2004:

      2. New York Times confirms 2000 vote not decided by Supreme Court, but by their investigation:

      3. Part one of Bill Sammon’s blockbuster book, “At Any Cost: How Al Gore Tried to Steal the Election,” revealed how the networks cost George W. Bush at least 10,000 votes in Florida by making an early – and completely false – call giving the state’s 25 electoral votes to Al Gore.

      4. The unspoken truth of the 2000 election dispute in Florida is always ignored by the left: Gore never led; not on election night, not after any statewide recount, not after adding the votes from county hand recounts, and not even in the exhaustive statewide post—election recounts conducted by the major state and national newspapers (in almost all of which Bush wound up ahead when any consistent method of counting was used.) Pick your method of counting chads, and it doesn’t matter. Bush won.

      5. Texas Gov. George W. Bush emerged with a 930-vote lead over Vice President Al Gore in Florida after a final tabulation of the overseas absentee ballots Saturday.

      6. And this gem from Howard Kurtz from the WaPo, on AlGore’s tactics:

      “On the morning of Nov. 13, Al Gore’s media men decided that they had to take Katherine Harris down. After a long, hard-fought campaign in which they worked relentlessly to shape the media coverage of their candidate, Mark Fabiani, the deputy campaign manager, and Chris Lehane, the press secretary, had plunged into an entirely different kind of race. With George W. Bush leading by a few hundred votes, they were determined to discredit Florida’s secretary of state, who had just set an impossibly tight deadline.

      “‘What do we know about her?’ Gore asked.
      “‘She’s very partisan,’ Fabiani said.
      “‘Does the press know that?’ the vice president wondered. [. . .]
      “Lehane believed they could not wait four or five days for journalists to dig into her background as the co-chairman of Bush’s Florida campaign. They started e-mailing negative material to the press.”
      —Howard Kurtz writing in the Washington Post, December 17, 2000

      7. William P. Kucewicz, editor of

      Consider the five key parts of the Democrats’ strategy for victory: 1) recount paper ballots only in pro-Gore counties to tilt the statewide vote; 2) redefine the rules used to determine what constitutes a legal vote; 3) pressure Democratic officials in two counties to resurrect previously abandoned recounts; 4) sue to disqualify absentee ballots mailed in by Republicans in another county, and 5) systematically disqualify overseas ballots expected to favor Bush.

      Selective recounting: Gore strategists were quick to identify those counties where a subjective recount of the ballots could hand their man a victory. At first, the complaint was about the now famous “butterfly ballot,” which may have caused some voters to miscast their choice for president. Gore’s people, however, knew that they couldn’t win the election on that basis, so they broadened their assault to encompass ballots rejected by counting machines in pro-Gore areas.

      The three counties selected were Miami-Dade, the state’s largest county, where Gore won 53% of the vote to Bush’s 46%, Palm Beach, where Gore garnered 62% to Bush’s 35%, and Broward, which gave Gore 67% of the vote to 31% for Bush. The three counties combined represent 27% of all the votes tallied in the state, and they account for 33% of all the votes awarded to Gore in Florida. By contrast, only 21% of Bush’s votes came from these three counties.

      Appreciate that paper ballots read by machine are inherently subject to a margin of error. This is acceptable, through, because it doesn’t affect the outcome of a race, so long as the errors are random and the overall vote is large enough to balance out the mistakes. In Florida, about two-thirds of the state’s six million ballots were machine-counted paper ballots. An expected error rate of around 0.1% likely affected less than 4,000 of the four million or so paper ballots, and the rejected votes would have been evenly distributed among all the candidates on the ballot.

      In other words, absent any errors, Bush still would have won Florida. The same, however, can’t be said of hand counting, especially when a great deal of subjective judgment is permitted. Allowing canvassing officials — eight of nine of whom in Broward, Palm Beach and Miami-Dade counties are Democrats — to use any telltale mark to determine a voter’s intent introduces such a large margin of error that it can actually skew the election result. Machines, even with their known error rates, provide for truer percentage tallies than subjective hand counts by political partisans.

      AlGore (one word) wasn’t really trying to ‘count every vote’ but was actually trying to disqualify validly cast Bush votes (especially from overseas absentee servicemembers, INCLUDING ME) and create new votes for him they didn’t exist on Election Day. He tried to increase the obstacles to our voting in the first place, and then tried to disqualify our votes when returned from overseas.

      Keep it up, sweetpea. You look just as foolish as the rest of the crybabies who whine about “stolen elections”.

      SFC MAC

  28. Works Cited

    Note From the Authors on Sources and Commentary

    1 Manual Roig-Franzia and Dan Keating, ”Latest Conspiracy Theory — Kerry Won — Hits the Ether,” The Washington Post, November 11, 2004.

    2 The New York Times Editorial Desk, ”About Those Election Results,” The New York Times, November 14, 2004.

    3 United States Department of Defense, August 6, 2004.

  29. …..I will make your blog the very best source of information on how thoroughly corrupt the 2004 election in Ohio was.

    1. dcjnor,

      Uh, no…you will just continue to make a complete fool of yourself and attempt to link more leftwingnut sources and conspiracy authors.

      Bush won the 2000 and 2004 elections fairly. I’ve provided countless incontrovertible evidence; you reciprocate with puerile denials accompanied by the allegations of mentally disturbed conspiracy hacks who cannot accept the truth.

      There’s only so many ways I can try to explain and show things to a simpleton, but I’ll just keep plugging away.

      More links on the 2000 election:

      From the leftwing NEW YORK TIMES, no less:

      And a consortium of newspapers who conducted an investigation, including the New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, CNN and AP. It determined that George W. Bush still would have won under either legally possible recount scenario which could have occurred: The Florida Supreme Court ordered recount of undervotes statewide or Gore’s request for a recount in certain counties.

      And the 2004 election:

      Even Jennifer Brunner, the ACORN hack/Ohio Secretary of State, confirmed the 2004 outcome.

      A recount showed Bush winning Ohio by 118,599 votes, the Ohio Secretary of State’s Office announced Wednesday.

      More on ACORN and Brunner’s corrupt tactics in the 2008 election.

      ACORN’s Voter Fraud in Ohio is Part of Larger Pattern

      Keep it coming, I’ve got lots more to counter your lunacy.

      Back to your boy Obama:

      Obama is an abject failure at both domestic and foreign policy. He’s destroying my country’s economic base, world financial standing, and national security with his scatterbrained socialism and the contingent of Dem sycophants.

      More than half of Americans do not want failed banks to get a bailout. People in this country are fed up with Obama’s tax, spend, and bailout orgy at our expense. The nation-wide “Tea Parties” (another event you ignore) have been increasing and have drawn thousands of protestors against THE ONE’S tyranny.

      But, you aren’t paying attention.

      Where did he get the legal authority to literally take over an American automaker and force $700 billion worth of Troubled Assets Relief Program (TARP) down the throats of the auto industry? He didn’t even consult his own party:

      House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) told on Tuesday that he does not know where ….Obama gained legal authority to oversee a restructuring of General Motors and Chrysler. But if authority is a question, he said, then Congress will grant it to the administration.

      However, when Congress tried to enact an auto industry bailout plan in December, the legislation was approved by the House but failed in the Senate where, under the rules, it needed 60 votes.

      “The administration clearly believes it does have the authority to use some of the remaining TARP funds for the automobile industry,” Hoyer told Tuesday.

      In other words, he TOOK the authority. More seizure and redistribution of wealth; communism.

      Forbes Magazine, an authoritative financial and economic publication has this to say of Obama’s spending spree:

      ……But all of this is just a pipe dream. Government spending does not cause a net increase in jobs over the long run; it costs jobs. Every dollar the government spends is either taxed or borrowed from the private sector, which means it “crowds out” private sector job creation. And because government spending is less efficient than private sector spending, the economy actually grows more slowly in the long run as the government gets bigger.

      ……The new massive government spending plans are especially frightening with the U.S. now facing $1 trillion deficits. President Obama says that this is all OK, and that he is cutting the deficit in half (to $533 billion using administration math, or $672 billion according to the CBO) in just four years. What he doesn’t say, and what no one seems willing to say, is that without his new budget the deficit would have been cut by 75% in four years to about $250 billion. The budget deficit and the size of the government are exploding…

      It’s bad enough he’s such an inept jackass when it comes to diplomatic decorum with Euro leaders—the useless DVDs he gave to Gordon Brown and the iPod he gave your Queen full of video footage and photographs of her 2007 United States visit to Virginia—but he’s also absolute dolt on the handling of foreign hostile threats.

      If you want more proof of his incompetent, kowtowing stupidity, look no further than his ingratiating statements to the Arabs and his deference to the U.N. over North Korea’s and Iran’s in-your-face ballistic missile tests and nuke programs.

      There are terrorist Islamic nation-states going nuclear, North Korea has just conducted a test of a ballistic missile that has the capability of reaching Alaska, Russia is re-arming and showing signs of the old Soviet attitude, and Iran is in the process of enriching weapons grade uranium.

      And how does ‘President Punchdrunk’ respond? He walks around in a daze with an idiotic grin, defers the ‘solution’ to the U.N., and plays diplomatic patty-cake with these thugs. He’s a fucking embarassment and basically, a waste of skin. BTW: Communist China is pretty happy over Obama’s nonchalance, as well.

      Here’s a quote that personifies the intentions and goals of Islamic extremist nation-states and their relation to the West:

      Ridwan Assayed in the pan-Arab al-Sharq al-Awsat said: “Sometimes disasters are necessary to bring about a change… the change I mean is not only economic but also political and strategic… there are now new economic powers… These new powers do not share the opinions of traditional western capitalist states.

      Wanna know what the Taliban thinks of Obama’s “reach out, touchy-feely” approach?

      Taliban insurgents reject a U.S. offer of “honorable reconciliation,” a top spokesman said on Wednesday, calling it a “lunatic idea” and saying the only way to end the war was to withdraw foreign troops.

      The message? Give up, Obama. Ignore our Islamic terrorism, pull out American troops, and stop fighting back at our terrorist aggression. He’ll likely do just that.

      Luckily, Obama wasn’t ‘in charge’ during WWII. He’d have been so far up Hitler’s ass, he would have been able to taste the sauerkraut he ate.

      SFC MAC

  30. Intellectually challenged folks do not get Ph.D.s. Take that back, or you get nothing but links about Ohio and 2994.

    1. dcjnor,

      Folks ‘intelligent’ enough to acquire Ph.D.s don’t resort to childish threats and spam-style links.

      Not only will I not heed the playground taunt of “take it back”, (that’s hi-lar-i-ous!) but I will issue a challenge of my own:

      “Bring it on”.

      I’m not sure what your lineage is, but you seem more foreign-born/raised than actually being from America, let alone West Virgina.

      In any case, you’re obviously a product of socialist-based education.

      SFC MAC

  31. Boy, do you need ot associate with a wider range of people and get your info from a wider group of resources.

    Allowing these big institutions to fail would have brought on an avalanche of other failures resulting in great suffering for hundreds of thousands of real live humans. Sorry, but anything that results in that level of suffering is out of the question. If the free market could have taken care of it, a private buyer would have come forward. But none did.

    No, resistance to Obama’s programs is not booming. His popularity stays nice and steady and grows in leaps and bounds outside the US, which makes a lot of Americans happy, too. You’re selective in what you allow in to your consciousness.

    Funny how good life is in this abject failure of an area, compared to the US. There are things that matter besides wealth, and there are even several kinds of wealth, several of which the EU values more than the US. One set of values is not THE “right” one. Research shows that people are happier living under EU type of values.

    Once again, opinion pieces, particularly opinion pieces with no references from sources known to have a serious bias in one direction, are not evidence. 208 references are.

    You’re the one who does not read, as evidenced by your refusal to READ the Rolling Stone article.

    Long ago, I posted a reference showing that the Scandanavian countries have economic freedom equivalent to that of the US. And remember, Denmark was judged to have a better climate for business than the US.

    Sweden can afford to let essential industries fail because it is a part of the EU which includes those industries in other nations. The US is on its own.

    Go ahead. Check what the historians say about the 2000 and 2004 elections. It is their opinions that will set down what the future world believes.

    1. dcjnor,

      Boy, do you need a clue. I’ve read your sources, and it’s the same run-of-the-mill tripe you’ve been spewing since you first came on here.

      The sources I provided also included columnists and economists in the VERY COUNTRIES involved in the discussion. I’ve cited a variety of publications; conservative and liberal. Rolling Stone is not a credible source of reliable journalism. It’s like Mother Jones, only with music critics. It’s leftwing-biased and it always has been.

      But, you ignore that.

      A top Swedish official, Maud Olofsson, was quoted in the article about SAAB. Again, you ignored it.

      As for the dimminishing Euro/Obama love affair, here’s one from your own country.

      Your fellow Englanders are growing bored with THE ONE. This Telegraph columnist has Obama’s number.

      Isn’t it time for him to go home yet? It is good, in theory, that the new President of the United States is taking so much time to tour Europe. He arrived in London last Tuesday, has been to Strasbourg, Prague yesterday and now he’s off to Turkey. It shows, I suppose, that he cares about the outside world and that is ‘A Good Thing’. But his long stay means that we are hearing rather a lot from him, way too much in fact.

      ……But Obama was only warming up. “When I was born,” (Everything usually leads back to him, you’ll notice)… “the world was divided, and our nations were faced with very different circumstances. Few people would have predicted that someone like me would one day become an American President.” (Him again)…

      “Few people would have predicted that an American President would one day be permitted to speak to an audience like this in Prague. And few would have imagined that the Czech Republic would become a free nation, a member of NATO, and a leader of a united Europe. Those ideas would have been dismissed as dreams”. (Not by Ronald Reagan they wouldn’t have been, when most of Obama’s Democrat friends thought the then US President’s robust approach to the Cold War made him a loony on the loose).

      ……I’ll wager that within a year or so he’ll be marked down as a wind-bag.

      Too late. He already is. Bamster is all mouth, no substance.

      I can’t make this any simpler, even for an intellectually challenged person such as you:
      Bush won. In 2000 and 2004. He won the popular vote and the electoral college in Florida and Ohio.
      The recounts were conducted under bi-partisan observation, and validated by election officials and through independent investigations. The only “historians” who have their panties in a wad over the elections are the ones with a conspiracy ax to grind.

      Obsess about something that actually involves a crime.

      Like ACORN. And the NY Dems, who are suppressing the rights of the military voters:

      Al Gore tried to do the same thing in 2000, with absentee military ballots.

      You keep ignoring the facts and keep your head in the sand, dcjnor.

      I’ll keep proving you wrong and laughing at your vacuousness.

      SFC MAC

  32. Given the present situation, auditing of banks is in order and entirely legitimate. In fact, it should have been going on before. Auditing is not taking over. I see no problems with the initiatives regarding other essential companies either, though I believe a very clear definition of essential should be included. In fact, I think that should have been done long ago. Someday the US will find itself in the situation that the South was in during the civil war if it does not cease outsourcing so many essentials. What the US would do for its textile needs in such a crisis I don’t know, because it is certainly not now equipped to cloth its citizens itself now.

    Europe IS elated over Obama, and don’t you just hate that?

    Those were your “dribs and drabs” and yes they are inane in response to208 legitimate references which you refuse even to examine.

    Reality is already recorded. Bush stole both the 2000 and 2004 elections, the proof is recorded in multiple places, and historians are already writing the chronicles. Perhaps you should check where historians are coming down on this, historians throughout the world, by the way.

    1. dcjnor,

      No. Given the current situation, letting free market capitalism take its proper course is the right solution, not inflicting a bailout at the expense of taxpayers and implementing government control. But because you’re a socialist, you think it’s perfectly ok.

      The resistance to Obama’s communist/socialist insanity is growing by leaps and bounds. Even wealthy liberals got a rude awakening. You really ought to read and listen to more U.S. publications like The Washington Times, Fox News, NewsBusters, Instapundit, TownHall, and Wall Street Journal. You might learn something besides the socialist pablum you ingest as “knowlege”.

      Even some Euro leaders have abandoned the failed economics Euro-socialism. It’s ironic that American ‘leaders’ are trying to force us into a system that failed miserably. Your leaders are openly criticising Obama for his idiotic bailouts, government intervention, encouragement of debt, and sky-high deficit.

      European socialism is an abject failure. Here’s an excerpt from a comprehensive analysis:

      ……The study, “The EU vs. USA,” was done by a pair of economists–Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag–for the Swedish think tank Timbro. It found that if Europe were part of the U.S., only tiny Luxembourg could rival the richest of the 50 American states in gross domestic product per capita. Most European countries would rank below the U.S. average, as the chart below shows.

      The Dems in our government have started a communist legislative assault on private industry:

      But now, in a little-noticed move, the House Financial Services Committee, led by chairman Barney Frank, has approved a measure that would, in some key ways, go beyond the most draconian features of the original AIG bill. The new legislation, the “Pay for Performance Act of 2009,” would impose government controls on the pay of all employees — not just top executives — of companies that have received a capital investment from the U.S. government. It would, like the tax measure, be retroactive, changing the terms of compensation agreements already in place. And it would give Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner extraordinary power to determine the pay of thousands of employees of American companies.

      The purpose of the legislation is to “prohibit unreasonable and excessive compensation and compensation not based on performance standards,” according to the bill’s language. That includes regular pay, bonuses — everything — paid to employees of companies in whom the government has a capital stake, including those that have received funds through the Troubled Assets Relief Program, or TARP, as well as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

      Didja get that? That, my dear, is COMMUNISM. A centralized government policy that dictates what an American employee will earn, regardless of profession, ability, or work performance. What did Karl Marx say? “From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.”

      You do not read, nor do you comprehend. Take off those cerebral blinders.

      Obama’s redistribution (“spreading”) of wealth is socialism/communism at its very core. I’ve read the U.S. Constitution. No where does it state that taking from those who earn and giving to those who do not, is a birth right. There’s a big difference between the freedom to pursue wealth and happiness, and having it handed to you through the burden of working taxpayers.

      The MSM in America may still have a glow for Obamessiah, but it looks as if some Euro leaders are over him already.

      European policymakers have been warning against the dangers of “crass Keynesianism.” The U.S. Federal Reserve has been flooding our economy with money, but the European Central Bank has cut interest rates slowly and reluctantly. Far from wild-eyed leftists, Europeans are looking downright conservative.

      And guess what? Even the socialist bastion of Sweden has decided to allow free market capitalism take its course.

      ……the Swedish government has responded to Saab’s desperate financial situation by saying, essentially, tough luck. Or, as the enterprise minister, Maud Olofsson, put it recently, “The Swedish state is not prepared to own car factories.”

      My gawd, you know it’s bad when Europe is less socialist than Obama’s policies.

      Bush won in 2000 and 2004, legitimately. Get over it.

      SFC MAC

  33. Civility itself deserves civility in return, nothing less.

    I have thoroughly written you under the table, to the point that you refuse to read my references. A refusal to read and address the evidence presented by the other side is a resignation in a debate. You lose.

    Again, you present dribs and drabs versus 208 references full of facts regarding the horrible way in which the 2004 election was conducted. Unless you read that Rolling Stone article and refute every single one of them. The folks you quote have been proven, in court, as referenced in the article, to be corrupt. It won’t work.

    European-style socialism is comig your way, like it or not. I hope you’ll have the integrity to admit that you like it. Note the future tense. Not now but later I hope you’ll have that integrity.

    1. dcjnor,

      Your looney theories and oblivious mentality deserve all the chiding you’ve received. Nothing less.

      Oh, by the way, more proof of Obama’s socialist thugery: There are banks that have been threatened, even though they didn’t “beg” for bailouts, with audits if they didn’t knuckle under the government’s buy-out plan:


      ….Obama administration is considering asking Congress to give the Treasury secretary unprecedented powers to initiate the seizure of non-bank financial companies, such as large insurers, investment firms and hedge funds, whose collapse would damage the broader economy, according to an administration document.

      Obama is a socialist’s wet dream. Europe ought to be elated.

      By the way, millions of Americans are not enthused over Euro-style socialism being forced down our throats:

      Your “dribs and drabs” are some of the most insane tripe I’ve ever read. They’ve been discounted and largely ignored even by the leftwing MSM, which is saying alot. The 200 and 2004 elections were conducted under heavy scrutiny, especially during the recounts. To incessently blab about conspiracies is a sign of a weak, sick mind.

      Your “election threft” theories don’t come even remotely close to reality.

      Keep trying.

      SFC MAC

  34. I have written you under the table just by retaining my civility in the face of your incivility and unwarranted insults of me, Freeman, Palast, Kennedy, Zogby, Lou Harris,and anyone else that disagrees with you. I have written you under the table by showing that these people you throw insults at are honored and respected for their work. I have written you under the table by refuting your outright lies. I have referenced the credibility of Rolling Stone’s journalism. What you refuse to read, you cannot refute.

    But you do not only insult Rolling Stone itself. The article in question has 208 references, each and every one you insult by refusing to believe the facts they present. You reject well-recorded facts, refusing to even look at them.

    I have read all the evidence you presented. The references I have presented are more creditable and consistent and numerous.

    To critique the US’s failure to adequately protect the credibility of its elections is to hold it to the high standards it has for itself, not to hate it. None of us hate the US, some of us want it to live up to these standards, you do not. You are quite happy for the US to fail to live up to the standards set by the founding fathers. That is bad citizenship on your part.

    Your few little dibs and dabs do not begin to outweigh the facts presented in 208 references which show extensive findings of malfeasance in the 2004 Ohio elections, court findings, congressional hearing findings.

    Guess what. Banks do not produce a thing. They simple juggle the paper regarding the business that actually produce. European socialism provides as much economic freedom as the US has ever had, as I have referenced. Nor does Obama’s dream for the US meet that definition. He forced the banks? The banks begged to be taken over, begged to be bailed out by the government becaise no other businesses would bail them out. Blame them, not the government.

    Europe has a system called social democracies. It works to the benefit of European people far better than the US’s system works for the benefit of its citizens. The US is far far far behind in any number of areas, a “first world” nation whose citizens live like second or even third world citizens, which is an insult to them and will be changed. Too bad that you will benefit as one of those citizens, because you do not deserve to.

    1. dcjnor,

      You haven’t written anyone “under the table”. All you’ve done is piss and moan about a non-existent ‘conspiracy’ and provided other conspiracy like-minded sources as your “proof’. That doesn’t deserve civility, it deserves derision, which is exactly what you got.

      More for your reading pleasure:

      The process and validation of the 2004 Ohio recount:

      ……(Jesse) Jackson and others complain that not enough of the roughly 155,000 provisional ballots — ballots cast by voters who might or might not be legitimate registered voters — are being counted. So far, an ample 76 percent of the provisional ballots have been ruled valid, roughly the same rate as in 2000. A provisional ballot isn’t counted when the person casting it wasn’t really registered to vote, voted in the wrong precinct or — more rarely — voted twice. Ohio’s standards for counting provisional ballots are entirely reasonable. Indeed, they are the same as in such liberal strongholds as New York, Washington, D.C., and Massachusetts.

      ……The fact is that the Ohio vote-counting process is a model of bipartisanship and openness. Before the election result is formally certified, the county Board of Elections does an extensive canvass. It carefully examines the provisional ballots, overseas ballots and ballots cast on Election Day, and runs them through the vote tabulators again. Then the board — always made up of two Democrats and two Republicans — holds a public vote to certify the result.

      Given this process, it would actually require the connivance of Democrats like William Anthony for Bush to steal Ohio. To complaints about long lines in Franklin County, Anthony replies that they were simply a product of high turnout. The county considered supplementing its electronic voting machines with punch-card machines on Election Day, but decided against it because it thought having two types of machines would be confusing. In other urban areas where blacks would have been “disenfranchised” — such as Dayton and Cincinnati — the local Democratic-party chairmen were also on the county Boards of Elections.

      More on predictions and polls:

      The data are not meant to be reported and are meant only to help media users plan their coverage…The results are not fully adjusted, for instance, to reflect the overall makeup of the day’s voting population. That’s only done much later as voting results start to be reported.

      ……early exit polls also may have included too many rabid Kerry supporters, who might have been more motivated to get to polling places early than Bush supporters were.

      As for European-style socialism, you may keep it. We’ve got all we can handle fighting B. Hussein Obama’s attempts to make us into a Euro clone.

      SFC MAC

  35. If you are not in denial, then read the article from Rolling Stone. I dare you. I have shown that Freeman’s reputation remains good, that in fact he has gotten awards and been commissioned to do other similar work. Again, I invite anyone interested to see the reviews of the book on Amazon, several of them from the most well known book review journals.

    And actually, of course, I am the one with experience of how socialism operates, not to mention my extensive documentation of just how well it works (read the discussion on American Missive cited above). It works. Believing something false in the face of reams of evidence against it makes you look dense.

    The Rolling Stone article is fully documented, fully referenced. And Rolling Stone actually has a very good reputation for investigative journalism.

    Note what the UK’s Independent had to say:

    1. djcnor,

      You’re not just dense, you’re braindead.

      I’ve read Rolling Stone, and I’m quite familiar with the type of “journalism” they engage in at the behest of Jan Wenner, who is one of the biggest leftwing meatballs on the planet.

      Palast and Kennedy are not credible observers.

      In one instance, Palast claims to have spoken with a ‘black’ servicemen who he says was ‘disenfranchised’ and had his ‘vote suppressed’.

      The truth:

      The problem with this choice of Randall Prausa (the “black” person in question) to illustrate disenfranchisement of African American servicemen by caging is that Randall Prausa is not Black.

      ……In its own checking on “caging,” ePluribus Media was able to reach Mr. Prausa by email and telephone. Mr. Prausa told us he did previously live at the address listed on the caging list. He also reports that he was deployed overseas and voted by absentee ballot in 2004. Review of the election data we received from the Duval County Election Office confirms that he voted by absentee ballot in 2004 and his ballot was counted. Furthermore, Mr. Prausa claims he has never spoken with Palast. His wife told us she was contacted by the BBC in October 2004, but the question of ethnicity never came up. The Prausas have not been contacted again by the BBC or anyone else about the 2004 election until we contacted them at the end of May 2007. Additionally, we found that of the 50 “soldiers” on the caging list (listing “Naval Air Station” as their address), 43 remained on the Voter Registration roll. Of these, nine are Black, four Hispanic, and twenty-three are white. Nine are registered Democrats (24%) and sixteen are registered Republicans (38%).

      And Kennedy, he’s just another member of the clan who wants his 15 minutes of fame through his father’s and uncle’s ‘reputations’. I have more respect for Patrick Kennedy, who is a bona fide lush, and admits he’s privileged. Said Kennedy at a 2003 function: “I have never worked a fucking day in my life.”

      Bottom line: there were not enough ‘disputed’ votes to change the outcome of the election.

      John Kerry definitely lost the election in 2004, in Ohio too. Only fools doubt that now.

      What this all boils down to is a bunch of losers complaining that their opponent got more votes, and what are the chances of that?

      The more lame excuses you produce, the deeper the hole you’ve dug for yourself.

      The problem with all of the “proof” you’ve cited, is that every single one of them hate the United States, hated George W. Bush, could not accept the fact he won, and went looking for reasons to justify their disbelief. None of them are credible. Take this to heart: To this day they look as foolish as the people who use them as a reference.


      Ohio even conducted a re-count in 2004, and still concluded that George W. Bush won the state.

      ……The Green and Libertarian Parties asked for the recount and raised $113,600 to help pay for it as required under state law.
      The recount, conducted over the past three weeks, showed that Mr. Bush won Ohio by 118,457 votes. Most county elections officials completed their recounts last week, but the state had to wait for Lucas County, where Toledo is located, to complete its tally. Lucas County reported the results of its recount on Tuesday.

      ……Unlike the 2000 presidential election, the 2004 contest ended with a clear and undisputed victory for Bush, as he won a majority of the popular vote as well as the electoral college vote.

      You can debate the ‘legitimacy’ of those votes until you’re blue in the face, but the recount was done in a professional, unbiased manner. The ballots were double checked for accuracy and validity.

      Want a glaring example of vote tampering? Look at what assclown Al Franken is pulling right now in Minnesota. He’s been producing “discovered” ballots out of thin air and dragging out the vote recount against Norm Coleman for the last five months.

      Bush won the Ohio popular vote as well as the electoral college. By 118,457 votes. Period. No amount of leftwingnut denial, propaganda, or contrived ‘statistics’ will change that. Your obsessive, incessant opining is really sad and pathetic, abeit entertaining. Like Freeman.

      I dare you to actually read the evidence I’ve provided, yourself. But you won’t because in the fervid minds of conspiracy wackjobs, rags like Rolling Stone carry more weight than credible sources.

      The blatant illegal tactics of ACORN in 2008 are well documented. They were registering illegals, homeless, dead people, and fabricated names. But that isn’t as important as projecting riduculous rants at the oucome of an election that didn’t go your way.

      so·cial·ism (ssh-lzm)
      1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
      2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

      The above definition describes exactly the type of policy being conducted by Obama. he has forced banks to take TARP funds under threat of auditing. He forced AIG, GM, and several other corporations to take bailout money, thus enabling the government to become part owner in these enterprises, and wield unprecedented power.

      Europe has had its own brand of socialism for years. To ignore that, especially since you’re smack in the middle of it, takes a pretty sophisticated set of cerebral blinders.

      I’m still waiting to be written under the table. Keep trying.

      SFC MAC

  36. No, Obama is not a Marxist. Associations prove nothing. For exaample, I am not a subscriber to McCarthyism, even though I from time to time associate with you, who seem to be channeling him (Joe, not the 60’s one). Actually, maybe you are, since your information on Alinsky, Davis, and Ayers seem to be about current with Joe, timewise.

    Seems to me, it’s the banks and such asking the government to take them over. I’ve never seen any company offer a similar sum of money to another company without getting at least the equity the government’s getting. It certainly wasn’t the government saying “Please! Please! Let us buy in to you!”

    Now, where were we before.

    Yes, your pollsters had presented their objections to Freeman’s statistical proof that the “official” vote count for the 2004 election was bogus in the early months after the election, giving him plenty of time to reply to them in the book. Check it yourself if you don’t believe me. I’m sure your local library has a copy. Do you know your way to it?

    Speaking of pollsters and Ohio, have you come upon what Lou Harris, the father of modern polling, had to say about Ohio 2004? “Ohio was as dirty an election as America has ever seen. You look at the turnout and votes in individual precincts, compared to the historic patterns in those counties, and you can tell where the discrepancies are. They stand out like a sore thumb.”

    Bush did not win Ohio. In Ohio alone, at least 357,000 voters, the overwhelming majority of them Democratic, were prevented from casting ballots or did not have their votes counted in 2004.

    And Joe Zogby called the Mitofsky explanation that there was something wrong with the exit polls rather than the vote count itself “preposterous” in speaking with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. for the Rolling Stone article. Have you read it? It contains a good deal about Freeman’s answers to the critiques. And everything it says is fully referenced.

    The same article lists the decisions from several courts on actions taken by various Ohio officials, who have actually been convicted, unlike Acorn or the people it hired, found cheating, and TURNED IN ITSELF.

    Keep going on about it, please. It gives me the chance to put the evidence in full on the web in one more place, along with references on how to get the refutation of GOP poopooing.

    By the way, a book has been made of the Rolling Stone investigation as well.

    1. dcjnor,

      Denial ain’t a river in Egypt. Obama’s ideology, policies, (both philosophical and implemented) are Marxist. He is doing exactly what is prescribed in communist methodology. The takeover of private enterprise, corporations, and banking industry. The dictation of policy instead of free market capitalist enterprise. All Marxist methods. Obviously you know nothing about socialist/communist theories put into practice….oh wait a minute…you do live in Euope, so you should know better. You cannot be that dense.

      Now, back to the fruitbat Freeman:

      Lots of people write conspiracy books. That doesn’t mean they know what the hell they’re talking about.
      Face it, Freeman is just one of the people who could not accept even the first election of George W. Bush, so he set out to write a volume ( a catharsis, if you will) of frustration reflected in “statistics”.
      Slowly: No one with credibility takes him seriously. The lunatic fringe however, is still frothing. Even the New York Times, an anti-American rag chock full of Bush Derangement Syndrome, concluded that Bush won both elections fairly. The ratio of wheat/chaff in Freeman’s ‘statistics’: 0%/100%.
      Oh yeah, more on ACORN:

      James Terry, Chief Public Advocate for the Consumers Rights League, testified at a joint House Administration and House Judiciary Committee oversight hearing on “Federal, State and Local Efforts to Prepare for the General 2008 Election,” where he highlighted “corruption at every level of ACORN” including embezzlement, cover-ups, misuse of taxpayer funds and voter fraud. The testimony can be viewed here:

      Pay attention to the real crimes. Otherwise, like Freeman, you’re chasing your tail.

      Rolling Stone???? Oh, please. That rag doesn’t even justify an answer. Common Dreams? Another leftwing site.

      SFC MAC

  37. I’ll get back to you soon. At the moment, I’m engaged in a civil discussion on American Missive

    By the way, you know I was refering to calling Freeman and myself unwarranted names, which in neither case fit, and you know it. It is uncivil behavior. And you’ve done it again in calling Obama a Marxist when there is not a shred of evidence that would make that pejorative valid.

    1. djcnor,

      Obama’s not a Marxist? Oh really? For someone who claims to be so knowlegeable and informed on candidates and issues, you sure are one of the most CLUELESS liberals I’ve ever encountered.

      His mentors included communist Saul Alinksy who authored “Rules for Radicals”, Frank Marshall Davis, (also an avowed communist activist), and William Ayers, a terrorist as well as a communist ideologue. He partnered with ACORN for years and ascribes to their communist philosophy.

      He’s already forcing the government takeover of banks and corporations. That’s one of the first steps toward a socialist/communist centralized government. He’s implementing the very methods right under the noses of you liberals, but you refuse to admit it. At best he’s a socialist and at worst a Marxist.

      Stuart Varney puts it best:

      ……The government wants to control the banks, just as it now controls GM and Chrysler, and will surely control the health industry in the not-too-distant future. Keeping them TARP-stuffed is the key to control. And for this intensely political president, mere influence is not enough. The White House wants to tell ’em what to do. Control. Direct. Command.

      Somewhere, Vladimir Lenin is smiling. Then again, the label fits.

      SFC MAC

  38. Yes, I know, and the objections to Freeman’s conclusions had been brought up long before 2006 enabling Freeman to answer them all in his book. And the writer and the people referenced in Salon are not aware of Freeman’s answers to their objections or the book would have been mentioned in the article.

    It does not make you look good to continue calling Freeman names just because he disagrees with you, especially when you call him names that are clearly unjust, because he is respected for his skills in the appropriate area and for his work on the election and his reputation is good as was shown in the website profile I referrenced earlier. Also especially because I am calling none of the people you reference such names. I believe they and you are wrong, but I do not call them names or suggest that “everyone” thinks they’re fools, because that’s not true. Nor is it true of Freeman.

    Not only that, but indeed they do take Freeman’s research seriously. They credit his statistics. They only suggest different, and much more complicated and unlikely explanations for them. Nor do they provide any research supporting those alternative explanations.

    One more time, I will repeat slowly. Acorn was required by law to submit every single application for voter registration they received, no matter how unlikely it was to be accepted. They are prohibited by law from making that judgement as is right, and they refrained from doing so, rightly.

    And then you use a blog as a reference. Blogs are opinion, not facts unless they provide direct references, and even then, selective facts.

    1. dcjnor,

      I’m still waiting for you to ‘write me under the table’. (heh)

      As for name calling…if the label fits, then it’s used. Obama is a Marxist; so he’s called a Marxist.

      I also cited news reports and articles as references. Freeman didn’t do such a hot job giving believable answers in his book. The pollsters were already on to him before he even completed his manuscript. I’m willing to bet he simply used the same ‘reasoning’ in his book that had already been discounted by the pollsters.

      Your (Freeman’s?) “1 in 250,000,000” exit poll conjecture has yet to disprove the actual vote count. The pollsters in the article pointed out the high probability that many of the exit polls either weren’t done extensively, or were skewed in favor of Kerry. Given the fact that Bush still won Ohio, I’d say those odds are high. Freeman has only his concocted ‘statistics’ to back up his supposition.

      His claims don’t come anywhere near the blatant fraud and vote tampering committed by ACORN. They didn’t even bother to hide what they were doing, and it was being reported on a daily basis. (Shall I cite those reports, again?) It’s almost too easy for the FBI to prosecute them. Several of their offices were raided and there’s a mountain of evidence to support the FBI’s case.

      All Freeman has is what, ONE DieBold tech who claims he was hired to throw a monkey wrench in some machines? Aside from that, there isn’t much proof. For Bush to pull off a nationwide ‘vote stealing’ effort, including the thousands of votes he got over Kerry in Ohio, is the stuff of schizoid conspiracy buffs.

      The difference between say, Freeman’s accusations and what we know about Obama’s radical background and associates, is that the latter is documented.

      This is what you’ve been reduced to: repeating the bitterness of a lefty professor who tailors numbers to bolster his “Bush stole the election” surmise, and conspiracy websites that would make Fox Mulder proud. No documentation. No hard evidence. No good investigative techniques or journalism. Just the ranting of half-baked sore losers; not unlike yourself.

      Bitter surmise isn’t proof.

      For a person who claims to be worldly, educated, and skilled, you sure tend to hitch your intellectual wagon to some very questionable characters and sources.
      Well, I think I’ve had enough laughs for one day. Go back to your conspiracy think tank and see if you can come up with anything better than a sad, indignant defense of a debunked numbers cruncher….or your own hackneyed excuses.

      But you keep trying, and don’t forget to adjust your tin-foil hat. And don’t forget to carry your ‘Capitalism is evil’ sign to the G20 protest.

      SFC MAC

  39. Two years later than what? Not the election. The book came out at an appropriate time to give full chances for critiques to have come out (critiques such as the ones presented in Salon) so that he could take up and answer them all. He did.That is why the book and Freeman remain reputable.

    And what the chances are is 1 in 250,000,000 that the exit polls would deviate so far and so consistently in one direction. That’s what it comes down to. Something with that small a chance of happening is essentially impossible to have happened by chance. That is by no means irrelevant. In fact, your references agree that there is something wrong. In this case, it is much more likely that what went wrong was the election rather than the exit polls. Given that, my advice to you is never to go to Vegas. When you lose, rather than believe the odds were very much against you, you’ll believe you haven’t yet learned to pull the handle right.

    By the way, among the editors choice letters in response to that Salon article are several that debunk individual points. I recommend that readers of this discussion include those letters in their reading. Let me point to just one letter by Lori.

    “Meanwhile, even as Manjoo discounts the evidence presented in Kennedy’s article his own conclusions are less than airtight. For example, Manjoo claims that:

    Scrubbing the voting rolls of people who hadn’t voted in prior elections isn’t an arbitrary move. It’s the law. Here’s the relevant section of the Ohio code, 3503.19, which states that a person who “fails to vote in any election during the period of two federal elections” shall have his registration “canceled.”

    Following the link that Manjoo provided, here is the complete section from the Ohio code (emphasis added):

    The registration of any elector identified as having changed his voting residence to a location outside his current county of registration shall not be canceled unless the registrant is sent a confirmation notice on a form prescribed by the secretary of state and the registrant fails to respond to the confirmation notice or otherwise update his registration and fails to vote in any election during the period of two federal elections subsequent to the mailing of the confirmation notice.”

    Also, note the many refering to the 2000 election as being known to have been stolen.

    1. djcnor,

      Okay…I’m going to say this slooooooooowly. Both the article and Freeman’s book came out well after the election: IN 2006.
      The article mentions Freeman’s ‘theories’ which he undoubtedly used in his book, as well as spoon-fed to Robert Kennedy Jr.

      Obviously, the pollsters in the Salon article are familiar with Freeman’s ‘ideas’, hence the reference to his ‘numbers’.

      Your understanding of what they said, must be lower than Freeman’s reputation with the polling experts.

      They poll for a living. None of them take a fruitbat like Freeman seriously. And these are people who were in Kerry’s campaign. They blew his theory to hell, as well as his strawman reference to the Ukraine. If you ever go to Vegas, don’t count on Freeman’s advice.

      And you might want to acquaint yourself with this bit of Ohio voter fraud pulled by ACORN with regard to registrants and residence:
      The Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) Board of Elections is currently investigating 75,000 ACORN registrations, with multiple registrations under the same name, different birth dates, and non-existent addresses……

      ACORN shipped out-of-state voters into Ohio to vote for Obamessiah.
      If you want fraud and conspiracy, that will keep you and Freeman pretty busy. The odds of him admitting just how much fraud occurred on Obama’s behalf are extemely low.

      And of course, there were the whiny letters from the requisite “Bush stole the 2000 election” crowd. So? Would you like me to the re-iterate the results of the independent investigations of the Florida count, again?

      SFC MAC

  40. You’re making no sense. “Two years before he jumped on the bandwagon?!!!” In other words, they debunked him two years before the election was even held?

    I repeat, exit polls and their deviation from vote counts are how all elections are judged throughout the world. Deviations predominantly in one direction are not natural.

    Sure, go ahead and ignore all the other evidence of Freeman’s good reputation and the ongoing interest and good opinion of his book.

    1. djcnor,

      The point you missed entirely, is that Freeman was just another conspiracy idiot to come down the pike, two years later.

      Even Salon, not known for conservative views, published a complete rebuke of the same “Bush stole the election” shit by Robert Kennedy, Jr. in 2006.

      The people who disputed his claims were not just experts on polling, but Democrat as well.


      ……there are the legions of activists, academics, bloggers and others who’ve devoted their post-Nov. 2 lives to unearthing every morsel of data that might suggest the vote was rigged; their theories, factoids, and mountains of purportedly conclusive data likely take up several buildings’ worth of hard-drive space in Google’s server farms.
      …… Especially in his section on Ohio’s exit poll, Kennedy reports his sources’ theories uncritically, even though many have been debunked, or have at least been the subject of tremendous debate among experts. Reading Kennedy’s article, you’d never guess that some of his star sources’ claims have fared quite badly when put to people in the field.

      And check out the list of debunked claims, not the least of which are:

      Claim: The exit polls showed an insurmountable Kerry lead, one that made a Bush win impossible.
      “As the last polling stations closed on the West Coast, exit polls showed Kerry ahead in ten of eleven battleground states — including commanding leads in Ohio and Florida — and winning by a million and a half votes nationally.” Kennedy adds, “Based on exit polls, CNN had predicted Kerry defeating Bush in Ohio by a margin of 4.2 percentage points. Instead, election results showed Bush winning the state by 2.5 percent. Bush also tallied 6.5 percent more than the polls had predicted in Pennsylvania, and 4.9 percent more in Florida.”

      Kennedy then includes a blockbuster quote from Steven (sic) Freeman, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania, who puts the odds of the polls being as wrong as they were in Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida at 1 in 660,000. ”As much as we can say in sound science that something is impossible,” Freeman says, ”it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote count in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error.”

      Reality: Kennedy is right that the polls in battleground states showed Kerry ahead. What he fails to say is that in many states, the exits didn’t show Kerry ahead by the margin of error, meaning, statistically, that his lead wasn’t secure. Way back in December of 2004, pollster Mark Blumenthal pointed out the key fact in this debate. Of the ten battleground states that the exit poll showed Kerry winning, he ultimately lost four– states that, you could say, cost him the election. These were Ohio, Iowa, Nevada and New Mexico. But in none of those states was Kerry’s lead outside the poll’s margin of error. In other words, the poll results showed a race that was too close to call, and it is impossible to use such a poll to prove that fraud occurred. As Mitofsky told me, television news networks, looking at the exit poll data, seemed to understand that Kerry did not top the margin of error, and so did not call these states for him.

      As for Freeman’s 660,000 to 1 statistic, it is irrelevant. (His comment to Kennedy — “As much as we can say in sound science that something is impossible…” — appears almost verbatim in the paper he put out in December 2004; I included it in a story on exit polling a year and a half ago.) The statistic measures the probability that the errors in Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida occurred due to chance or random error, and according to Freeman, that probability is very low. But nobody argues the errors happened by chance. Everyone in the exit poll debate agrees that there was a systematic cause for the errors in the poll. Freeman, Kennedy, et al., claim that the systematic cause was fraud, while Mitofsky and many in the polling community claim the cause was a problem with the poll.
      So Freeman’s argument that it would take preposterous odds to produce a random sampling error is a straw-man assertion.

      Claim: Exit polls are usually accurate.
      “Over the past decades, exit polling has evolved into an exact science,” he writes. “The results are exquisitely accurate.” Kennedy points out that exits are often used to verify the integrity of an election — he refers to Ukraine, where in 2004 exit polling “exposed election fraud that denied Viktor Yushchenko the presidency.”
      Essentially, Kennedy’s argument goes like this: Exit poll numbers — which are derived from interviews with voters after they’ve cast their votes — showed us what voters actually wanted. The discrepancy between the exits and the final count indicates that something funny happened in the casting or counting of ballots in Ohio. If the Ukranian exits proved fraud, why don’t those in the U.S?

      Reality: “Nonsense,” says Mark Blumenthal, the professional Democratic pollster who runs Mystery Pollster, the poll-scrutinizing blog that has comprehensively covered the exit poll story since Election Day. Anyone who says that exit polls are the most reliable kind of survey “only demonstrates that the person making that statement knows very little about how surveys are done,” Blumenthal says.
      Warren Mitofsky, the veteran pollster who conducted the exit poll for the networks, told me last year that he doesn’t think the exits represent the gospel truth of what happened during an election. The ACE Project, a group that advises democracies on how to conduct elections that is spearheaded by, among other groups, the United Nations, says this of exit polling: “Their reliability can be questionable. One might think that there is no reason why voters in stable democracies should conceal or lie about how they have voted, especially because nobody is under any obligation to answer in an exit poll. But in practice they often do. The majority of exit polls carried out in European countries over the past years have been failures.”

      As the MIT political scientists Charles Stewart has pointed out, it’s not useful to compare the role of exit polls in Ukraine’s 2004 election with exit polls in the U.S race. The two elections, and the two nations, are too different to come to any meaningful conclusion from such a comparison. In Ukraine, one exit poll showed opposition candidate and eventual president Viktor Yushchenko winning 54 percent to 43 percent nationally. Mitofsky’s final national poll put Kerry at 51 percent and Bush with 48 percent. Compare this to the actual result, which had Bush at 51 percent and Kerry with 48 percent. The difference is not that significant.

      Moreover, Stewart notes, pre-election polls in Ukraine agreed with the exits, bolstering the case that Yushchenko was the true winner. In the United States, though, the polls taken before the election tended to show either a very close race or a Bush win. (You can read Stewart’s paper in PDF format here.)
      When you talk to pollsters about what to make of the 2004 American exit polls — as I have done, on and off, for the past year and a half — you don’t hear the degree of trust in the surveys that Kennedy suggests. Exit polls are sometimes wrong; indeed, examples abound. In 1992, the exits showed almost as great a pro-Clinton bias as the 2004 poll’s pro-Kerry bias — in other words, the poll showed Clinton with a lot bigger win than he ultimately had. The reason that poll didn’t cause a firestorm is because the race wasn’t as close as the one in 2004.

      Claim: Tens of thousands of people were disenfranchised due to voter registration errors.
      Kennedy points to an analysis conducted by the nonpartisan Greater Cleveland Voter Coalition. He says it showed that “16,000 voters in and around the city were disenfranchised because of data-entry errors by election officials, and another 15,000 lost the right to vote due to largely inconsequential omissions on their registration cards.” He adds the study concludes that statewide, “a total of 72,000 voters were disenfranchised through avoidable registration errors — one percent of all voters in an election decided by barely two percent.”

      Reality: Kennedy has misread the Greater Cleveland Voter Coalition report in a small but important way. The report examines the numbers of people whose registrations were bungled due to their own or their county officials’ error. Some of those errors — for instance, submitting a registration form without an address — disqualified people to vote. Other errors, such as someone’s making a mistake while typing in your name, might or might not have disqualified you. So not all of the 16,000 people in Cleveland whose registrations included data-entry errors were disenfranchised. In fact, many of them got to vote. (You can read the coalition’s PDF report here.)
      Kennedy’s error is important when you consider the number of people disenfranchised through registration errors statewide, which he puts at 72,000. In fact, the coalition reports the number as an estimate of about 42,500 votes that were “lost,” and 30,000 votes it says were “at risk” of being lost; it is not clear how many of those that were “at risk” were actually lost.
      The report simply does not say that 72,000 people were disenfranchised.

      The more you defend Freeman, the more foolish you look.

      It comes down to a simple point; what you’re saying is this author is ‘authoritative’ and ‘believable’ because he based his conjecture on a hypothesis of “what are the chances of….”

      What ‘killer math skills’. What bullshit.

      But you go ahead and keep believing that crap.

      SFC MAC

  41. Please note the date of Freeman’s book, 2006. As I said before, the book answers the criticisms. Calling Freeman names does not change his reputation. For that, I suggest you and other readers google him. You will find that he has won awards since then, his book has not gone out of print, and he continues to be scheduled to lecture on the subject of the book. Apparently, he is not in such disrepute as you appear to think.


    “He has also published extensively on election fraud and is a prominent national speaker on the crisis in democracy in the US. He is the lead author of the groundbreaking, highly praised book, Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count. He has presented findings demonstrating large scale US election fraud to the American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Association of Public Opinion Research, and the American Statistical Association as well as the National Hispanic Congreso, the Free Press National Media Reform Conference and the United States Congress.”

    “He also received an award from Sonoma (California) State University’s Project Censored for his analyses documenting evidence of US election fraud.”

    As for Acorn, I note your change of subject and remind you to follow the story completely. If youdo, you’ll find it was Acorn who detected what they were up to and turned them in.

    Imagine if some other organizations acted that way.

    In addition, I remind you that indictment is not conviction.
    And I remind you that Acorn was obligated, by law, to submit each and every application for voter registration it received, no matter how unlikely to be legitimate. How can it be against the law to submit improper ones AND not to submit every single one they received? That’s contradictory law, and double jeopardy for anyone caught in between the two laws.

    Keep reading down your own site to comment #47:

    “Complete garbage – notice how the article fails to mention a few key points:

    1 – ACORN flagged questionable registrations before turning them into the government- resulting in all these recent investigations.

    2 – ACRON has NEVER been accused of throwing an actual election – in fact, hackmeister hoft doesn’t EVEN allege that a single election has been thrown because of voter fraud – much less ACORN fraud. Hackmeister Hoft refuses to detail the obvious: voter registraion fraud and election fraud are two completely different articles…

    3 – John McCain has ALSO particpated with ACORN.

    TPM Hack Hoft accuses Obama of key participation in this group – another lie – Obama participated, as a lawyer, in a DOJ lawsuit – on the same side of ACORN, and donated money to their voter registration efforts – he also was involved with two training sessions registering voters – end of story – hardly a key player in an orgainzation that started when Obama was still a child.”

    While I’m at it, I’ll add this:

    Of course, you know I was referring to the huge amount of 2004 voter fraud by Republican for which convictions have been obtained, enough easily to have changed Ohio’s results.

    1. dcjnor,

      Okay, let me clarify: Zogby debunked accusations like Freeman’s 2 years before he jumped on the bandwagon.

      BTW: More on exit polls, by Zogby:

      ……Exit polls achieved particular infamy in the 2000 U.S. presidential election, when they were misused by the television networks to make not one, but two, incorrect projections of the winner who had been selected by voters in Florida.
      ……exit polls become problematic when they are used to project a winner. No matter how good the sampling process involved in an exit poll, it is still sampling, which means that there is a margin of sampling error. This matters less if the election is a landslide, but in a close election, a one- or two-point margin of error looms large. Based on the pre-election polling and the exit polls throughout the day in 2000, there was no legitimate way that television networks could have possibly determined whether George W. Bush or Al Gore had won the state of Florida before all the votes were counted. The pressure to get the projection first trumped the pressure to get the projection right.

      What Zogby is trying to tell thick-skulled conspiracy theorists, is that it’s not a good idea to rely on exit polls as opposed to the actual outcome of an election. This is because overzealous MSM pundits and those doing the polling are likely to skew the results in favor of their partisan leanings. Like Freeman.

      Ohio even conducted a re-count in 2004, and still concluded that George W. Bush won the state.

      ……The Green and Libertarian Parties asked for the recount and raised $113,600 to help pay for it as required under state law.
      The recount, conducted over the past three weeks, showed that Mr. Bush won Ohio by 118,457 votes. Most county elections officials completed their recounts last week, but the state had to wait for Lucas County, where Toledo is located, to complete its tally. Lucas County reported the results of its recount on Tuesday.

      A breakdown, state by state:

      Most Americans know he won fairly and are not convinced by Freeman’s smoke and mirrors:

      Unlike the 2000 presidential election, the 2004 contest ended with a clear and undisputed victory for Bush, as he won a majority of the popular vote as well as the electoral college vote.

      The trouble with Freeman and other conspiracy buffs is that they give a good deal of innuendos, sketchy accusations, and devious plots by someone or some group—although it’s never clearly defined. What’s missing is documentation, good journalism, and hard core evidence.
      Freeman props up his animosity over Bush with detailed, albeit contrived “statistics”.
      So far, all you’ve offered is a book written by an anti-Bush statistician who crunched numbers to favor his views, and a bunch of citations by leftwingnut ‘troofers’ who blame George W. Bush for everything from AIDs to their erectile dysfunction. It would be comical if it weren’t so downright pathetic. Statistically, the chances of anyone proving a false premise as fact are nil.

      As for the “hardly a key player in an orgainzation that started when Obama was still a child.”….I was 13 when ACORN was founded and William Ayers and his Weather Underground comrades blew up people and buildings in the name of “revolution”. Once you become old enough to read and understand the backgrounds and history of groups you associate with, you should know better. Nice try. Fail.

      ACORN is a corrupt organization that has committed voter fraud on an enormous scale. Hence, the FBI investigation.

      Freeman’s ‘reputation’ is not enhanced by writing a book full of “statistical” conjectures.

      But you go right on ahead and keep believing crackpots like Freeman, if it makes you feel better.

      SFC MAC

  42. Freeman’s statistics have not been challenged. Only the reasons for the data that is the basis of those statistics. I will remind you once again that we would not have accepted a similar explanation for the Ukraine election or any of the other elections challenged by the same kinds of statistics.

    I have seen the critique you mention. It has been answered in the book.

    If Zogby was more reputable than the two independent world-based organizations that do the exit polls all over the world, they would be hired to do that instead. By the way, if the exit polls are all in error in the same direction, it does not matter if they are within zogby’s margin of error. Errors in the same direction so dominantly are still very very highly unlikely. And even Zogby said an commission was needed to determine what went wrong. Actually what went wrong was the vote. Shall we go into the actual convictions that have happened in Ohio as the extensive fraud has been revealed?

    1. dcjnor,

      Zogby disproved allegations like Freeman’s back in 2004, when all of the ‘stolen election’ groupies piled on the conspiracy bandwagon, along with the ones left over from 2000. No one pays attention to wack jobs like Freeman, except other wack jobs. This has been re-hashed over and over again by obsessed loonies who refuse to accept the fact that George W. Bush did not steal or try to steal any election. Not in 2000. Not in 2004. Ever. The only ones convinced of Freeman’s self-serving “statistics” are people who will not believe the truth, no matter what.

      As for ACORN and Dem operatives, however:

      So, less than a week before the midterm elections, four workers from Acorn, the liberal activist group that has registered millions of voters, have been indicted by a federal grand jury for submitting false voter registration forms to the Kansas City, Missouri, election board. But hey, who needs voter ID laws?
      We wish this were an aberration, but allegations of fraud have tainted Acorn voter drives across the country. Acorn workers have been convicted in Wisconsin and Colorado, and investigations are still under way in Ohio, Tennessee and Pennsylvania.

      The FBI’s investigation in Ohio:

      ACORN charged with racketeering:

      Claims from area residents that they have been hounded by the community activist group ACORN to register to vote multiple times have sparked an investigation by election officials into ACORN, whose political wing has supported Barack Obama.

      Complete guide to ACORN fraud, including who’s been convicted, so far:

      The FBI’s investigation into ACORN is ongoing.

      Try again.

      SFC MAC

  43. No, Freeman’s analysis of the US election is exactly the kind of analysis used on elections throughout the world to check their validity. The data he used was gathered by the self-same companies that do it for other elections, Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International. It is a long proven method.

    And, no, what it boils down to is the history of exit polls. Via that history, we know how likely it is for the reported vote count to differ a certain amount from an exit poll. Bigger deviations are much much less likely. If you have ever seen the basic statistical bell curve, it falls rapidly from the middle on both sides, never on one side predominantly.

    Consider the red shift graph of the 2004 election, the shift towards Bush in state after state, and to an extreme amount, amounts that are extremely (1 in millions) unlikely to happen. Not only are the shifts from the norm overwhelmingly in one direction (39 states towards Bush), but the more the state was in contention, the bigger the shift. The shifts for Vermont, New Hampshire, Deleware, South Carolina, Nebraska, and Alabama were each over 4%, which in each case is extremely unlikely. For 4 other states, it was greater than 3.5%.

    When you calculate a combined probability, you multiply the individual probabilities. For example, say your have a bag with 20 balls, 17 white balls, 1 red ball, 1 blue ball, and 1 yellow ball. Three times, you blindly grab a ball from the bag, record its color and put it back. The chance of pulling out a red ball is 1 in 20 as is the chance of pulling out a yellow or a blue ball. The chance of pulling out a red ball, then a blue ball, then a yellow ball is 1/20 X 1/20 X 1/20, so 1/8000, 1 in 8000.

    Now consider the 50 states and the shift. If the chance of a deviation from the exit poll of 2% is 1 in 200, you have to half that for a deviation in a particular direction, towards Bush rather than toward Kerry, so 1 in 100. Now, the bigger than deviation, the bigger the odds, which remember are known from past history, and the odds fall very steeply. So the odds of a deviation of 2.5% may be 1 in 5000, of 3% 1 in 100,000, of 3.5% 1 in 5,000,000.

    You have 50 individual deviations for the 50 states, and for the overall chance you have to multiply all those chances together, so 1/500 X 1/5,000,000 X 1/20,000 etc. etc. etc. just like you did with the balls. When you do that with just the three most contested states, which are not among those with the greatest deviations, you end up with 1/250,000,000.

    That’s a bit of a simplified version of the calculations. The full version is in the book. Now, when you do a scientific experiment, you consider your conclusion successfully proven if the odd of your results happening by chance are less than 5 in 1000. So imagine how conclusive an experiement that yielded a 1 in 250,000,000 chance would be.

    1. dcjnor,

      All you have to go on is the paranoid fantasies of the “troofer” brigade fueled by people like Freeman who try to bolster their ‘credibility’ through convoluted ‘statistics’. No matter what the facts, there will always be a segment of the population who think there’s a conspiracy boogie man hiding behind everything they don’t like. They cannot accept the fact that George Bush won the presidency, (twice) so they comfort their derangement through all kinds of wild-assed ‘plausibilities’. So stick with the facts; if you can find any, that is.
      Funny you should mention exit polls. Much of what you assume has been debunked.
      Here’s an article by Zogby, one of the most credible and reliable pollsters on the planet:

      Faulty exit polls puzzle experts, feed conspiracy theories
      Just after noon on Election Day, exit poll numbers leaked widely on the Internet raised hopes in the Democratic campaign that Sen. John Kerry would be moving into the White House. Three weeks later, those faulty findings remain a mystery.

      The consortium of news organizations that sponsored the huge voter survey can’t say exactly what went wrong. The pollsters themselves pin much of the blame on a misunderstanding of the early numbers and even wishful thinking by some who leaked them.

      An internal investigation is expected to be completed in about a month and delivered to the the major TV networks and the Associated Press, which make up the consortium. Highlighting their concern, the news media group last week agreed that, on future election days, their exit pollster will not provide them with data until after 4 p.m.

      The erroneous results are keeping the Internet abuzz with suggestions that something was awry in the Nov. 2 presidential election.

      Theorists on the left have alleged that the variation between early exit polls and the election result means that the vote count itself must be wrong. Internet postings from the right counter that the exit polls were designed with a pro-Kerry tilt and then publicized in a deliberate attempt to discourage President Bush’s supporters from going to the polls.

      Even as those overseeing the poll brush off such dark suppositions, they are struggling to explain why exit polls showed Kerry with a three percentage point lead late on a day in which the president won by more than 3.5 million votes.

      “You used to be about to go to the bank at 1:30 p.m. with the first round of exit polls,” said John Zogby of Zogby International, a polling firm that was not involved in the exit surveys. He said the findings were easy to interpret and “in the final analysis, the numbers didn’t change all that much.”

      This year, however, Zogby said, the early numbers seemed out of whack, with reports that Kerry had a 20 point lead in Pennsylvania, a state that he won by 1 percent.

      At the Associated Press, the voter polls lost credibility early in the day after they listed pro-Bush states such as Mississippi and Montana in the too-close-to-call category. As a result, the AP waited for actual vote results before calling close races.

      Joe Lenski, executive vice president of Edison Media Research and one of the directors of the exit polls, conceded that the surveys, which aimed at questioning every 10th voter leaving 1,480 precincts nationwide, had missed the mark.

      “A superficial reading of the data would have indicated that Kerry had a slight lead,” he said in a telephone interview. But he defended the survey’s final result, calling it “well within the sampling error,” which ranged between 2 and 5 percentage points.

      “I’ve been doing exit polling since 1987,” he said. “I know the margin of error. The differences we saw in just about every state fell within those calculated errors.”

      Comparing polling projections to the work of a hurricane forecaster plotting a wide area for potential landfall, he said some of the leakers had selectively released the data on Web sites.

      “A lot of times, people with some sort of interest may take the estimate that looks best to them and just not report the other dozen or so estimates,” Lenski said.

      Moreover, Lenski said that some of the numbers posted on the Internet on Election Day were just plain wrong.

      The news media consortium, known as the National Election Pool, that hired Lenski and veteran exit pollster Warren Mitofsky has asked for a more conclusive explanation for the glitches in the exit polls, however.

      “In 2000, except for Florida, they were actually pretty good,” said Kathleen Frankovic, director of surveys at CBS News and a spokeswoman for the news consortium. This year the projections were “more different from the actual results than one would like to see.”

      Exit surveys, by their nature, always vary somewhat from the actual vote count. In recent years, they have tended to over-estimate the support for Democratic presidential candidates.

      Writing for the Century Foundation, a liberal policy group, Ruy Teixeira tracked past preliminary exit poll numbers and found the Republican vote to be consistently under-estimated before the data were adjusted to reflect actual vote results. In 1988, for example, initial findings showed Democratic candidate Michael Dukakis with 50.3 percent of the vote, although George H.W. Bush won the election.

      The difference this year was that the Internet made it easier for the world to see the unadjusted numbers in an election that was already very close and in a survey that was, apparently, even more skewed toward Democrats.

      Frankovic, who has been working with surveys at CBS since the late 1970s, said the internal probe is examining why.

      Among the possible factors is the increasing practice of absentee and early voting, which are more difficult to track. The pollsters tried to compensate by conducting pre-Election Day surveys of absentee voters.

      Another issue is why some of the early results had an over-representation of women, who tended to favor Kerry over Bush.

      “There’s also an issue of whether Democrats were more willing to talk than Bush voters,” Frankovic said. She added that experience shows that older voters are generally less willing to participate in exit polls than younger people.

      Other unknown factors are the interviewers, since experience shows some are far more successful at coaxing voters to answer the survey than others.

      “Polls are pretty blunt instruments,” Frankovic said. “They are not as precise as I think some people would like to think.”

      Although some of the mystery surrounding the polling may be cleared up in the next few weeks, the news media probe may not satisfy everyone or end the speculation.

      Zogby said that what’s needed is an independent commission to study both the exit polls and vote counting procedures, which have also come under fire.

      “At the very least, it’s a healing thing to try to find out what, if anything, went wrong,” said Zogby, who has been eating his own share of crow, since he predicted that Kerry would pull out a victory in the last hours, despite his own pre-election polling that showed Bush was ahead.


      Freeman should have called Zogby first.

      You have yet to submit anything of merit that would convince a logical person that GW “stole” the elections.

      Freeman may be an “expert” in your mind, but not in that of Zogby’s or most other sensible people.
      I’m sure Loose Change and Truth Out would welcome your “insight”.

      SFC MAC

  44. No. Let me explain it. You know that McDonald’s Monopoly game? The one where your chance of getting all the railroads may be 1 in 1000, and the chance of getting all the green properties is 1 in 5000, and the chance of getting all the yellow properties is 1 in 10,000, and so on. Well, suppose, someone claimed just by chance to have gotten all of the railroads, all of the utilities, all of the reds, all of the blues, all of the greens, etc. up to 9/10ths of the sets available and so won 90% of the prizes. Would you need to know HOW he cheated to know that he cheated? Or would the simple miniscule chances of his being able to do that without cheating convince you?

    Well, that’s what the red shift graph shows Bush did. He beat the equivalent of 2500 1 in 1000 chances, or since there are 50 states, let’s say 50 1 in 500,000 chances all at once. If someone turned up at a lottery desk claiming to have bought 50 1 in 500,000 tickets on the same day, would they pay out?

    1. dcjnor,

      Here, let me do you a favor and cut through all the analogy crap you just regurgitated. (again)
      Aside from coming up with his own concocted statistics, he convinced no one (outside of the “troofer” crowd) nor did he prove just how George W. Bush and the imaginary legion of cohorts could have pulled off such a stunt…nationwide. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can come up with a set of numbers they think sounds about right, and then set out to gather “evidence” to justify those numbers; DNA notwithstanding. What it boils down to is Freeman thinks he can “prove” that eeeevil George W. Bush “stole” elections, based on his contrived statistics. I bet all this was accomplished by leaving the actual popular and Electoral vote count out of his mathematical equation. See, I come from the world of Intelligence Analysis. We dealt with hardcore proof. For instance, when we traced the activity and movements of a particular muslim terrorist group or individual, we use collection methods like SIGINT, ELINT, HUMINT, IMINT. Each method produced imagery, recordings, and documentation of terrorist activity. In other words, tangible evidence. All he came up with is a number he achieved through his own contrived “research”.
      Sorry. Not convinced.

      SFC MAC

  45. No, I;ve got killer math skills, including graduate level statistics. You? Proportionality does however seem to escape you.

    And nope. Do you have explain what it is about a particular person’s DNA that makes it a 1 in 250 million chance that someone else would be identified by it in order to get a conviction? Nope. You just have to show the chances are that low. That’s exactly what the US does in examining elections outside the US and it’s exactly what Stephens did.

    1. djcnor, (aka “killer math skills”)

      The whole problem with Freeman’s theory; it’s based on nothing more than an unproven statistic reflecting his own bias. Based on all the hyperbole and liberal support for Kerry, he figures that why, there’s just no way George Bush should have won that election. And come hell or Michael Moore, he’s gonna sting together a set of astronomical numbers to “prove” it. All it shows is that Freeman is good at crunching numbers, and not so much at convincing. When he comes up with a “Deep Throat”, let me know.

      Did you get the 62,028,285? (heh)

      PS: The “proportionate” was in reference to Denmark.

      SFC MAC

  46. Nope. Sorry. He doesn’t have to explain how. If he does. Then the US does when it uses the same tools to prove that other countries’ elections are rigged. And the US doesn’t. It just uses the exact same tool to show that the stats prove it was rigged one way or another.

    1. dcjnor,

      Wrong. If your going to make an accusation, you’d better prove your case with a demonstration (or proof) of just how something like that could have been pulled off. Statistics don’t prove anything except for his own hypothesis. The possibilty of Freeman being right is a 0 chance in 62,028,285. Guess what number that is.

      SFC MAC

  47. Curiousity/ How do you think the population density of Denmark and the US compare? Don’t go look it up. Tell us what you think?

  48. So it’s the crimes per acre rather than the crimes per population that matters? Absolute nonsense! No, the reference showed that they have 1/8 the crime per population, and that is what matters. What people get for their taxes is of prime importance, and Danes get a whole lot more for their taxes than Americans.

    And as for economic problems, remember, both Forbes and The Economist found Denmark to have the best climate for business in the world. That’s despite their taxes on businesses being 3 X those of the US and despite providing their workers with much greater benefits. American business managers must be rubbish beside theirs. That’s American Forbes! So saying they have a high level of economic problems is just nonsense, too.

  49. The references for the other stuff were rubbish. You don’t even know what the e-book said, because you can’t read it. And the other one actually says the information it contains is likely to be unreliable.

    1. djcnor,
      No, they weren’t. They were a response to the same run-of-the-mill conspiracy crap you’ve posted on here. Stephen Freeman, according to some of the reviewers on Amazon, could not prove his theory. He simply bolstered it with smoke and mirrors.

      I’ve read allot of opinions from people consumed with Bush-is-evil conspiracy theories since 2000. Everything from “election rigging” to the “troofers” claims that he brought down the World Trade Center all by himself.

      Again, it would take a concerted effort on the part of a very large number of people to pull off what George Bush has been falsely accused of.
      He would’ve had to have an army of software engineers, Diebold technicians, and election officials numbering in the thousands. And all of them would have to remain silent about the entire plot.

      You know what djcnor? You’re just as fruity as those people on sites like Truth Out and Loose Change.

      And just as entertaining.

      Remember the saying: “There’s lies, damned lies, and statistics”? That’s Freeman and your analogies in a nutshell.

      SFC MAC

  50. Yes stick to that one if you like it better. Somebody told Bush something he was dying to hear, but he forget hearing it. Yeah, that’s more likely. I’ll let you switch to that one if you like. No one will believe either one, but take your choice.

    1. dcjnor,

      You can either believe the documented reports or not. You choose not to.

      Wishing it away will not make it so.

      SFC MAC

  51. Now, go back and see what the rate of violent crime is in the US per 5 million people. Wait, let me do it for you. Please.

    Intentional homicides per 100,000 population, most recent: US 5.6, Denmark 0.79

    Richards, Patsy (1999-05-27). “Homicide statistics, research paper 99/56” (PDF). House of commons library, Social and general statistics section. p. 29. Retrieved on 2007-01-11.

    Do you really want me to go on?

    1. djcnor,

      Compare the relative size of the United States to Denmark. Proportionately, they have quite a bit of crime, overtaxation, welfare, and economic problems for their size and utopian sociaist policies.

      But still, it’s a welfare leech’s paradise.

      SFC MAC

  52. Actually, a computer technician has come forward and testified to being hired to manipulate Diebold machines. It has been shown to be extremely easily done. Whatever way it was done, the statistics (I assume you were making fun of someone’s typing) show that it was done. A 1 in 250 million chance is a 1 in 250 million chance. Anomalies just don’t all fall in the same direction, ever. Remember, it was the same technique used to prove manipulations of votes in elections across the world. If those methods are valid for other elections, like the Ukrainian one (and note they don’t have to know how to declare it was done), they are valid for US elections.

    They were found, but nobody told the President, who would have really liked to have heard that news. Yeah, sure. Stick to that one, will you? Say it again. Please.

    1. djcnor,

      Hired by whom? The GOP? Did he get hand picked by president Bush? Maybe you should contact the eeeeeeevil Karl Rove for details.
      Another wack job conspiracy story.

      No one had to tell the President. He had the same access to classified and open source material as every one else.

      I’ll stick to the documented reports of the WMDs, thank you.

      SFC MAC

  53. Now, let’s talk some more about Denmark.

    First, you do realize the contradiction in their having a larger percentage of their working age folks actually working than the US and you’re characterizing them as lazy folks who want to suck off the taxpayer, right?

    You really worked hard to find some kind of negative links about Denmark, didn’t you? One is even an e-book in Danish! Who knows how valid it’s information is since it isn’t even really published. Another actually says the allegations are unsubstantiated. Not to mention that it contains no comparison what-so-ever regarding Denmark vs other countries.

    You also forgot to do the math on unemployment. Denmark has about 5 million people of which, your article says, unemployment has risen to 64,000. Let’s see 1% would be 50000, so 64,000 amount of a rate, after the increase, of a little over 1%!!! Ha Ha Ha!

    Second, the crime rate in Denmark is so miniscule compare to that of the US that even what would be a tiny change in the US comes out as a huge increase percentagewise. For example, the year I was there, the whole country was upset about the fact that they had had 2 (!!!!!!) murders that year in the entire country.

    The piece you quote was not written by anyone who lives in Denmark. They would laugh at the idea that they have low expectations of their government and for their lives. They expect to never have a medical bill in their lives, to never have to spend a penny for education, even higher education, to never have to have the expense of running a car; years with their kids in the early years, even for men; total safety from crime, free neighborhood creches while they work, to have unemployment benefits that last longer than the average unemployment period and includes free re-education or retraining, vacations two to three times as long as Americans have, meals supplied by the companies they work for, and any number of other things. They are happy because they get very good value for those taxes they pay. Americans should have such low expectations.

    It’s always funny when they come out with those cost of living studies without considering all the things that folks in good social democracies don’t have to include in their family budgets that Americans do have to include.

    And it is true that Danes aren’t constantly comparing themselves to the folks next door. Even their celebrities and royalty wander around like regular citizens. The royalty has jobs. The queen writes chidren’s books.

    1. djcnor,

      From Denmark’s Shaky Welfare State:

      The number of violent crimes in 1960 was approximately 2,000; it is approximately 15,000 today — an increase of more than 700 percent, and it is still rising steeply.
      This is a very surprising development, says Hansen, since welfare state advocates often say that crime is caused by poverty. But Denmark has become about twice as rich per citizen during this period of rising crime.

      Wow…so much for crime being cured by the socialist ideal of equal distribution of wealth.

      As for the blissful lazyness of Danes, and who wrote it, you forgot to read the part about Danish citizens being interviewed:

      Unidentified Danish man: “I broke my leg and I can, I can’t go to work, but I can walk up tomorrow and get a bundle of cash in my hand from the state to help me out. I’m pretty spoiled.”
      Hasan also talked to a Danish woman and seemed to approve of her theory that joy comes from not trying very hard, rather then setting rigorous goals for oneself:
      Hasan: “Add to that a natural modesty amongst the Danish people, 32 year-old single mom Steina (sp?) tells us its one reason that makes the country great.”
      Steina (No last name given): “I don’t put dreams totally up there so I can’t reach them.”

      Yep, those hard-working industrious Danes…the ones who foot the bill for the slugs, that is.

      And the increase in organized crime, human trafficking and slavery, as well as at least 200 Danes losing their jobs every day, a cost of living that is ranked 15 places above that of NEW YORK CITY….Proportionally, that’s a shitload of problems for such a small country.
      Something’s rotten in Denmark.

      Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Sometimes I crack myself up.

      SFC MAC

  54. So, go ahead, explain why Bush expressed regrets at not finding any WMDs at all. Go ahead.

  55. Yep, that’s about right. There’s a snowball’s chance in hell that the 2004 vote was not manipulated. Glad you finally admit it.

    1. dcjnor,

      Uh, no my dear. That’s a snowball’s chance in hell that it was actually manipulated.

      Nice try.

      You must be running out of hackneyed excuses. You’re down to one-sentence ‘retorts’.

      SFC MAC

  56. There’s only a 1 in 250,000,000 chance that that vote count you keep quoting wasn’t seriously tampered with. Stephens proved it using the same methods that proved the Ukraine vote was tampered with.

    1. djcnor,

      From reading reviews on Freeman’s “book”, here are some insights on his “satistical analysis”: He opines that votes were “stolen” but cannot explain HOW. He goes through a litany of wild-assed scenarios and “probabilities”.

      In order to pull off a ‘theft’ of such magnitude would take a well-coordinated conspiracy of silence with a very large number of people.
      It would also have to involve a cabal of software engineers, people who rig the electronic voting machines, people behind the scenes throwing out handfuls of Kerry votes….gawd…the possibilites are endless.
      In other words, whatever problems there were with glitches in the electronic voting system, exit pols, or registration, it had no bearing on the outcome. He had nothing to do with any manipulation…real or imagined.

      But that doesn’t matter to you conspiracy loons. George W. Bush was responsible for everything from AIDs to your sexual dysfunctions. It’s amazing how you labeled him ‘stupid’ yet ‘cunningly evil’ at the same time.

      You lefties are hi-lar-i-ous.

      SFC MAC

  57. So a 1 in 250,000,000 chance is not a 1 in 250,000,000 chance no matter what kind of chance you’re talking about. Go ahead. Admit that you believe that.

  58. Now that I’m back on track, I repeat things that you deny giving no refuting data but discounting perfectly valid references. One example is your discounting wiki despite the fact that one of the two most authoritative scientific journals in the world, Nature, has researched and found it to be valid. Go ahead, go against Nature one more time. I’d love to point out your denial of evidence from such a reliable journal another time.

    Would you like to also discount Encyclopedia Britannica’s account of whether there were any WMDs in Iraq when we invaded? That is what matters, because if they were not there, Saddam had complied with the UN mandate and Iraq was invaded on false pretenses. This is very well documented in the UK and they are plenty mad about it. Even George Bush expressed his regret at not being able to find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that was in 2008! How do you explain that?

    Let’s see, what else do you talk about. Ah yes, Jimmy Carter’s respect throughout the world. The Independent talks about it.

    and, uh oh, Britannica agrees again.

    You cite blogs for your delusion that opinions regarding Obama are falling? Try real polls.

    Well, now you have the task of coming up with ten just as reputable contrary references for each of mine. Go for it!

    1. djcnor,

      Back on track? Hardly. You’re still going round in circles, this time with The Guardian, a leftwing rag.
      Again, here’s the info to discount the “no WMDs in Iraq when we invaded” spiel:
      1. We invaded in March 2003. I know because I was deployed there for the first part of the major combat operations.
      2. In 2003 we discovered 500 weapons containing mustard and sarin nerve agent.
      3. 23 June 2004, 1.77 tons of enriched uranium, about 1,000 “highly radioactive sources” were removed from Iraq.
      4. 14 August , 2005: U.S. troops raiding a warehouse in the northern city of Mosul uncovered a suspected chemical weapons factory containing 1,500 gallons of chemicals believed destined for attacks on U.S. and Iraqi forces and civilians, military officials said Saturday.

      5 July, 2008: The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein’s nuclear program — a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium — reached a Canadian port Saturday to complete a secret U.S. operation that included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a ship voyage crossing two oceans.
      The removal of 550 metric tons of “yellowcake” — the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment — was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam’s nuclear legacy.

      Fox News, BBC, Washington Post, American troops, civilian HAZMAT inspectors. Not good enough? Tell you what sweetpea, why don’t you contact the people mentioned in the articles and tell them all about your (and Encyclopedia Britannica’s) theory.

      I’m going to explain this to you sloooooooowly. We invaded in 2003. Those weapons were discovered in 2003, 2004, 2005, and the last of the WMDs we found there were shipped out in 2008. WHAT PART OF CHRONOLOGY DON’T YOU GET?

      In case it still hasn’t penetrated your thick fog, all of those weapons were there when we invaded. They were discovered and shipped out afterward. Do you know how to read a calendar?

      Deluded opinions about Obama? Aren’t the Euro’s own words good enough for you? Many his supporters are starting to realize that the ‘world’s president’ isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.
      Bamster’s approval slips to 50-50
      That’s a real poll.

      Even some Democrats in our own government are protesting THE ONE’s tax/spend/bailout scheme.
      The honeymoon is over.

      The 10 references apply to the “peaceful muslim” crap. Wanna keep score?

      SFC MAC

  59. Moving on along, let’s take up that 1 in 250,000,000 chance that the 2004 election was not manipulated and stolen. Yes, I found out that the chance was even more miniscule than I had remembered. And yes, it is the same tiny order of magnitude as the chance that the wrong person will be identified by DNA, that is, essentially no chance at all.

    The data? Well the person who is most credited with the statistics is Stephen R. Freeman. The site below gives a grahical representation of how he calculated that number. (By the way, it is exactly these same methods that the US used to proved that the Ukraine election, later overturned, was stolen.) Freeman initially calculated that the odds of just three of the major swing states, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania all swinging as far as they did against their respective exit polls without manipulation were 250 million to 1.

    He then went on to write a book detailing his methods. Read the reviews for yourself. His methods are entirely valid.

    The name of the book is “Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen”, in case any outsiders want to check it out. Thanks for letting me give it still more exposure.

    1. djcnor,

      Let’s put it this way, the chances that George Bush could have somehow manipulated 3,000,176 votes in his favor is even more miniscule, DNA analogies aside.
      “whatreallyhappened” ???? Oh, please. Don’t make me laugh. It’s a website well known for its moonbat conspiracy theories. They even think the JEWS had something to do with 9/11.
      Come up with a better source. That one is lame.

      You frothing lefties get no respect when all you do is whine and scream “we were cheated” every time you lose an election.
      There are always irregularities and problems in every election. Machine malfunctions, illiterate voters who cannot tell which arrow points to which candidate’s name, and illegitimate voters such as illegal aliens, people shipped in from other states to register and vote, those with no valid residence, etc.
      The system isn’t perfect. But by and large, it works.
      Aside from all the patently false bullshit about Bush “stealing elections” and “manipulating”: The 2000 vote count was brought to a halt by the Supreme Court so that this country would be spared further embarrassment by Gore’s puerile tantrum. Florida, the swing state in question during that election, had already swung towards Bush’s advantage anyway. When the final votes were counted during investigations by private organizations and even leftwing newspapers, they concluded that Bush did indeed win Florida. Period.

      In 2004, the popular vote was even more in Bush’s favor. He won my (swing) state of Ohio by 136,483 votes. And considering the anger over the Eurotrash letter, it was a no-brainer that the vote would lean toward Bush. No ‘hanging chads’ this time; just a clear cut margin of victory.
      Take a good look at this map:
      See all that red? Those states went to Bush. Period.

      You want real vote controversy? ACORN’s crimes in the state of Ohio in 2008 were rampant. Our Secretary of State, an Obama lackey by the name of Jennifer Brunner, was ass deep in the corruption.
      This past election is a virtual cavalcade of manipulation by ACORN and Obama-friendly state officials.
      Allot of manipulation was done by liberal-media “exit polls”.
      All things considered, you need to save your lectures and admonishment for all of the Democratic crooks who have their own corner on the “vote manipulation” market.

      SFC MAC

  60. Where do I start? I’m going to put my responses into several posts in order to avoid the risk of losing things in the transfer of a reference link, as has happened several times.

    Since I had already made it as far as Denmark before I lost this one, that’s where I’ll start.

    Denmark has the world’s happiest people:

    It has the best business climate in the world, as judged by both Forbes and the Economist.

    It has considerably more freedom of the press than the US. (Denmark #1, US #44)

    It is also more democratic and has less corruption than the US. (Denmark #1, US #15 and #14 respectively)

    It has an unemployment rate of 1.8 to 3.5% depending on your reference.

    And it has a higher percentage of its workforce actually working (75.4% vs 74.1%)

    If that is socialism not working, then the US should not work as well.

    1. djcnor,
      Again, if I were a lazy individual who wanted to suck off the teat of the taxpayer, what better place than a socialist welfare state?

      “Good Morning America,” ABC reporter Lama Hasan asserted that, according to a new study, generous welfare and low expectations make the people of Denmark the happiest in the world.
      In addition to paying “astronomical taxes,” Hasan noted that “psychologists say Denmark’s secret lies in a culture of low expectations.” Hasan also compared the Danes to status seeking Americans:
      Hasan: “So, any pleasure on any day seems like a kind of gift, a sweet surprise. Unlike Americans, Danes are not always comparing themselves to others and asking for more. It seems that everywhere you go in Copenhagen, you stumble on the satisfied. Having a generous welfare system that provides security and comfort doesn’t hurt.”

      But it looks like all that generosity is taking a toll:

      Denmark’s Shaky Welfare State

      Increase in organized crime:

      Human trafficking and modern day slavery

      Sharp increase in unemployment

      Denmark ranks 7th highest in the world for cost of living.

      Yep, a veritable paradise. Thanks to overtaxed working Danes.

      SFC MAC

  61. I note that you continue your “quantity is everything” strategy. Typical male.

    YOU’VE been chasing your tail. I already said several times that Saddam had WMDs at one time because we gave them to him. Did you only now see it? How slow! But they were not there when we invaded. Anything found in 2005 is not evidence that they were there all the time. Given the CIA 2004 statement, apparently they came to different conclusions regarding what they saw. You keep mentioning wiki, despite scientific evidence from Nature, one of the two most authoritative science journals in the world, that it is accurate, which is pretty silly, but what about Britanica, which says the self same thing, not to mention any number of other sources?

    I read your sources, but I do not find one guy more conclusive than any number of authoritative contrary ones. No scientist believes anything based on one data source when there are a great number that say something else. It makes no sense.

    Once again, regarding Muslim, you simply dismiss my point without presenting any contrary evidence. I know why, because you can’t. On the other hand, I can, from a conservative source!

    “Ninety-nine percent of the world’s 1.2 billion Muslims are moderate and see jihad as a self-cleansing process to get back on the path of spiritual excellence. Presidents Mubarak, Musharraf, Ben Ali (Tunisia), Kings Abdullah II of Jordan, Fahd of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed VI of Morocco, and other moderate Muslim leaders, all have told this reporter in the past two years that Islamist extremists are no more than 1 percent of their population.”

    Your ignorance of statistics is appalling. You do realize that you continue to deny that a 1 in 250,000 chance is a 1 in 250,000 chance, right? DNA evidence is valid only because the chance of it being wrong is so small. Well the chance of the 2004 election not having been manipulated (the chance that all those anomalies fell in the same direction by mere chance) is just as small. If one is valid, so is the other. Period.

    The NYT article discusses only a small selection of the manipulations. More complete discussions are easily found, but the best known is a BBC documentary. There are also several books available. Why do you think the world disrespected Bush? They all knew he hadn’t been elected in the first place.

    Go ahead, avoid admitting that you are alone in the way I meant. The military is your family. I figured that out a long time ago. But most folks eventually have lives outside their families. Do you?

    I gave you the reference for Denmark’s (and a good number of other countries’) level economic freedom. If you consider that organization not an appropriate judge, please state how you consider their measure illegitimate.

    Obama’s poll numbers are not diving. Even FOX admits they are still above even Reagan’s at this point in his term, in the 60’s.

    Jimmy Carter has respect throughout the world, even in the US, aside from certain circles.

    You keep making false statements without any references. Do you really want me to present references showing them to be patently false, as you know I could for the above?

    Disparagement is not argument. You have been notified. From here on out, I will cite references proving your false statements to be false as I have for the idea that most Muslims support radicals.

    1. dcjnor,

      As for quantity vs quality: short, hackneyed statements in the name of brevity, still don’t carry weight. I refute every single claim of yours, point by point. Dissecting your nonsense, bit by bit. I make it as succinct and factual as possible.
      And you revert to analogies. You’re a real debater. Heh.

      “Male”…uh, no sweetpea. If you bothered to read the “about me and this blog” section, you’d know that I’m female. Although research and at least trying to get your facts straight aren’t your strong suit, I can forgive the assumption, because I once referred to you as “Mr.”

      You blame the U.S. for “giving Saddam” WMD materials, yet DENY that any were ever found. And up until the time I showed you the 2005 article in question, you were of the opinion that he hadn’t had any in a long time. Not true. He continued to manufacture more weapons on his own. He had the facilities, the materials, and the personnel to do it. Once again, I proved your “opinion” false and as well as the opinions of other leftwing pundits who mistakenly thought the same thing.

      I did not cite “wiki” per se. I cited blogs and websites that DIRECTLY REFUTE wiki’s bias. Read the URLs again.

      When the CIA took the time to visit the sites where the looting took place, it was one of those “UH OH” moments.

      What kills me about you lefties is you either deny he had WMDs, deny any were ever found, or even more pathetic, blame us for “letting them slip away”:
      You just can’t seem to make up your minds.

      I read your “sources” as well, and countered with numerous sources (both government and civilian) that directly contradicted them. The people that packed up the discovered WMD materials for shipment, those on the receiving end who destroyed them, and those who stayed behind to clean up the toxic residue, were HAZMAT experts and chem/bio engineers. They are scientists, and it takes a considerable amount of scientific knowledge to perform their jobs. And, it doesn’t take a scientist to figure that out.

      I submitted several sources that dismiss your theory of radical Islam (a redundant phrase) and its practitioners as being ‘peaceful people’ who only want to ‘live in peace’. Their philosophy, religious doctrine, and anti-Western hatred belie that statement.
      I’ve seen them try to explain “jihad” as an “internal struggle”. The problem with that is it’s usually externalized in the form of beheadings, bombings, and calls for death to the infidel.
      Tell you what, you assemble as many “peace-loving” muslim friends as you can muster, (probably as many as you can count on one hand) and you march on down to Anjem Choudary’s mosque and tell him to quit the jihad shit. I bet you don’t make it out of the mosque.

      Are you still spouting the statistical nonsense about DNA? You have yet to prove the correlation between DNA statistics and what you perceive as “manipulation of the 2004 election”
      Why don’t you use numbers that actually have something to do with the conversation? Like this citation which explains the fact that Bush won both the POPULAR vote and Electoral college. Period.

      Bush: Popular vote: 62, 028, 285 Percentage: 50.7% Electoral College: 286
      Kerry: Popular vote: 59, 028, 109 Percentage: 48.3% Electoral College: 251
      You’ll notice it’s not even wiki, to boot.

      Manipulations…. like the popular vote?
      And speaking of manipulations, your illustrious Guardian newspaper tried a stunt during the 2004 election with some good folks in my home state of Ohio. They tried their hand at influencing the 2004 election in Ohio due to the fact it was a ‘swing state’.
      An example of Eurotrash arrogance:

      And the response of Americans:

      The “world” (Euro) that disrespected Bush could not accept the truth anymore than you, and while we did the majority of the fighting against the Islamofascists, they jeered from the sidelines.
      For that, they get no respect from us, either.

      I live both inside and outside of my family. Do you live outside of your dream bubble?

      Denmark is a heavily taxed welfare state. If I were a lazy, shiftless, non-working Dane I’d be in paradise, I’m sure. The way we put it here in America is: “Work harder. Millions of welfare recipients depend on you.”

      Obama’s poll numbers are dropping substantially because of his dopey policies and inability to cope with the job. The guy is a complete dud. More on Obama’s economic train wreck:

      And it looks like your fellow Euros are losing their adoration for the ‘Bamster’:

      Jimmy Carter has respect in certain circles…like Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, and in the Gaza strip with Hamas.
      Most people in the U.S. shake their heads every time this assclown tries his own brand of ‘diplomacy’, which usually takes the form of violating the Logan Act and Section 3, Article III of the U.S. Constitution.
      Would you like me to show you instances?

      I “have been notified”….ooooooooh you’re a scary little muslim sympathizer. Tell you what, sweetpea, for every single “reference” you cite, I will give you 10. There’s so much to counter you with, since muslims commit acts of violence in the name of their religion every day of the week. Believe me, there’s no shortage of the little bastards or their murderous deeds.

      You keep chasing your tail.

      SFC MAC

  62. i looked over your cited evidence one more time. Yes, they show the weapons did exist at one time. Of course they did. The US gave them to Saddam. However, your citations do not show that they remained in Iraq when the US invaded. He had gotten rid of them one way or another by then. Thus he had complied with the UN’s orders.

    1. dcjnor,


      i looked over your cited evidence one more time. Yes, they show the weapons did exist at one time. Of course they did. The US gave them to Saddam. However, your citations do not show that they remained in Iraq when the US invaded. He had gotten rid of them one way or another by then. Thus he had complied with the UN’s orders.

      Comment by djcnor — March 25, 2009 @ 12:53 pm

      You stopped doing the intellectual equivalent of chasing your own tail, and actually read and understood something. Bravo.

      Another point you missed:

      The citations show that Iraq’s accumulated WMDs still existed up until 2005. Gawd knows how many more have yet to be discovered and how many ended up in the wrong hands.

      He kept thumbing his nose at the U.N. inspectors up until the time he kicked them out.

      The “US gave them to Saddam”? You’re referring to the decade before the 1990 invasion of Iraq.
      Looks like allot of other countries contributed, as well. Much of the nuclear and chemical weapons material and equipment was supplied by German, British, Swiss, Japanese, Italian, French, Swedish and Brazilian firms. Most of the sales were legal and often made with the knowledge of governments.

      The bottom line is that Saddam’s dupicitous nature and uncooperative behavior prevented inpectors from getting an acurate measure of what he had and what he did not. As it turned out there’s allot they didn’t know.

      SFC MAC

  63. And now for a more extensive reply…

    It is because of my more broad experience that I can make analogies like the one about midwives versus obstetricians and the one pointing out that a 1 in 250,000 chance is the same miniscule chance whether referring to the wrong person being identified by DNA or referring to the chance that so many voting anomalies could have fallen in Bush’s direction in 2004 without manipulation. Both points are entirely valid. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to repeat them, particularly the one about the election.

    Wikipedia is authoritative as is proven by the research I referenced comparing its accuracy with that of the Encyclopedia Britanica. I then also backed up what Wiki (and EB) said with a reference saying the same thing (There were no weapons of mass destruction to be found) from the CIA itself.

    I am as educated as I claim. Look at my blog post on “The Kosher Laboratory” regarding stem cell research. That is what enabled me to research the accuracy of wiki.

    I looked at your articles. They are not conclusive or the CIA, EB, and Wiki would be agreeing with you. Yes, they were there once. The US gave them to him. But when we invaded, they were not.

    It would seem you think writing someone under the table is related to quantity. It is not. Go for quality instead.

    No Muslim society is rife with extremists, not a single one. The vast majority in all countries are not that involved in whatever religion is the major one. And of those who are religious, the majority simply use it to guide their personal lives, not their politics.

    By the way, that action in Japan is only questionably justified by the savings of more lives by doing it. You’re totally alone, aren’t you? That’s why you have so little care for other people’s families. Or maybe you’ve somehow managed to keep the idea that folks other than Americans are people, too, out of your conscious psyche. I learned from a freedom rider professor that one of the best defenses is to make a threatening person see you as a human rather than a stereotype. You seem to have sorted the world into stereotypes. It’s a sad thing.

    As for Christians on the warpath against another religion? Try the last century. Think about it.

    Yes, I’m saying that Bush only got in because he was a legacy,

    “His SAT scores were 566 for the verbal part and 640 for math. Those were far below the median scores for students admitted to his class at Yale: 668 verbal and 718 math.”

    and only got through because he had tutoring and old exam questions and answers from his frat brothers. The same reference reports he was in the bottom 20% of his freshman class.

    By the way, Bill Ayers is a distinguished professor. If you are going to label people by what they were in their younger days, then Bush was a cheerleader. You can’t have it both ways.

    Again I say it is ridiculous to label programs as successful or not before there is any evidence one way or the other. In fact, if you were to judge by the results so far, those include bringing the DOW almost back to what it was when he came in and reviving the housing market.

    I take my talking points from no one but myself. If you can’t generate your own, don’t project that on others.

    Denmark, that most socialist of European countries has economic freedom equal to that of the US, 79.6 versus 80.7

    and was named by Forbes and The Economist as the country with the best business climate in the world.

    Apparently the European version of socialism works just fine.

    The present state of the economy can be laid at Bush’s feet. I can’t believe that you make fun of wiki, which can be proven to be authoritative and then throw FOX, which can’t, refeences at me. Sorry, but FOX isn’t even news, not to mention your refs being old.

    Obama is still in high favor. Sorry. The world has a better perspective toward Jimmy Carter. His appreciation goes up and up. Sorry. The US has a bad history of not appreciating its own and of appreciating folks the rest of the world thinks absolute fools. It’s time to change that.

    US immigration law has, historically, always been biased toward one group or another, always aimed to keep one group or another out. Just after the transcontinental railroad, it was the Chinese. Later, it was the Irish and the Italians. Just last century, shamefully, when they needed entry most, it was Jews. Now it is other groups. Such groups always come anyway and always prove to be as good citizens as the rest of us. What it takes to immigrate, legally or illegally, outrageous gumption, ability to adapt, and willingness to sacrifice your entire home network and start over from nothing, are virtues every country could use more of. And doing it illegally even takes more of those virtues.

    Your end statements again confirm that all your relationships and references are military ones. Broaden yourself, for your own good.

    1. djcnor

      No. You make claims and ‘back them up’ with vapid opinions, not facts. DNA statistics and obstetricians have nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. Analogies are all you have in lieu of a concrete argument. You have an autistic-like fixation. Repeating yourself, using the same incessant babble is not a substitute for a persuasive argument.

      It makes you look VERY foolish.

      The election in 2000 and 2004 was legitimate, and all of the moonbat conspiracy theories will not change that. If you want some real controversy, look no further than Al Gore. He tried to invalidate thousands of military absentee votes (mine among them; I was overseas at the time), because he knew they would likely favor Bush.

      The New York Times, not known for being pro-Bush or pro-American, confirmed that George W. Bush won the vote count and the Electoral College in 2000.

      A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year’s presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward.
      Contrary to what many partisans of former Vice President Al Gore have charged, the United States Supreme Court did not award an election to Mr. Bush that otherwise would have been won by Mr. Gore. A close examination of the ballots found that Mr. Bush would have retained a slender margin over Mr. Gore if the Florida court’s order to recount more than 43,000 ballots had not been reversed by the United States Supreme Court.

      The gorebots can scream all they want. Facts are facts.

      As for the 2004 election, it was even more clear cut in Bush’s favor:
      After the count was finished, Bush received 286 electoral votes to Kerry’s 251.

      As a matter of fact, as early as October of 2004, CNN also not known for its love of George Bush or America stated this:

      If the election were held today, Bush likely would win 301 electoral votes to Kerry’s 237, according to a new CNN survey based on state polling as well as interviews with campaign aides and independent analysts. A candidate wins the election with at least 270 electoral votes, regardless of the popular vote.
      Bush already had a lead in the Electoral College over Kerry.

      When the Democrats come out on the losing end they always scream foul.

      Do I think Obama stole the 2008 election? Not quite, but there was enough blatant widespread voter fraud by ACORN to draw attention to groups and individuals who certainly did their part to try. There are volumes of documented illegal activities to warrant the FBI investigation now underway.

      Wikipedia is about as “authoritative” as you are. This is to say, not much.

      Read (because I know you did not bother to the first time) the time lapse between Dave Gaubatz’ discovery, the looting, and when the CIA finally showed up. No wonder they didn’t those particular WMDs. THEY HAD BEEN LOOTED. But you weren’t astute enough to pick up on that. That means, and I will make this as simple as I can for you, that although some were already found (the yellowcake, 1.77 tons of enriched uranium, and 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons agents) some were gone by the time the CIA finally got around to arriving at the sites. They saw evidence of what had been WMD storage and the looting. Those are facts, not opinions.

      Stem cell research does not qualify you in the field of Intelligence, enemy doctrine, or tactical and strategic analysis. Nor has it enabled you to tell the difference between the truth and what passes for “facts” on wiki. Wiki plays fast and loose with the facts.

      Wiki has become nothing more than a leftwing revisionist forum. More often than not, disputes over their information are settled by left-leaning members of their staff, who delete citations and facts in favor of those that suit their agenda.
      Their bias has generated a good deal of outrage and discussion:
      I never cite wiki. It’s a joke.

      You may have ‘looked’ but you did not read. Wiki doesn’t agree with anything that refutes their liberal stance and the CIA article (again) was written before they acknowledged the looting of WMD. The CIA has never disputed the discovery of 1.77 tons of enriched uranium which was taken from a former nuclear research facility…after being packaged by 20 experts from the US Energy Department’s secret laboratories.

      In 2005, U.S. troops in Mosul discovered 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons when they raided a storage facility. You gonna call them liars, too?

      The proliferation of WMDs happened during and after Saddam’s rule. That’s because the hidden materials, labs, and facilities were already in place and had not yet been discovered.

      I don’t know how much more simple I can make that for such an “educated” person…in the name of quality, of course.

      “No Muslim society is rife with extremists, not a single one. The vast majority in all countries are not that involved in whatever religion is the major one. And of those who are religious, the majority simply use it to guide their personal lives, not their politics.”

      You are certifiably dense. That is proof positive.
      Where are the so-called “peaceful muslims” in opposition to the muslim majority of violent jihadists who use the violent precepts in their religion as a doctrinal tool for terrorism?
      They burn synagogues:

      They commit atrocities in the name of Islam around the world:

      Yet, no opposition from the so-called “peaceful muslims”. Face it, if they actually used it to “guide their personal lives, not their politics”, there would be no war between Islam and the West.

      A good article on the pervasive extremism in Islam:

      Radical Islam has made tremendous inroads into the hearts and minds of Arabic-speaking Muslims. In the socio-cultural realm, militant Islamic discourse maintains hegemony in the public debate among Arabs, replacing Pan-Arabism and Marxism.

      The bombing of Japan was “questionably justified? You know as much about WWII as you do the Islamic threat. Japan was ready to fight to every last man, woman, and child. Emperor Hirohito was a “god”. We spared at least another million troops from invading Japan, and the cost of more American lives.
      We also destroyed Germany and did things like firebombing Dresden to pieces.
      We cut a swath through Italy, too. The point I’m making is enemies and their allies have to be defeated.

      A “freedom rider professor”….another BS analogy. Alright, I’ll play along. Comparing Black American citizens civil rights to our fight against a foreign-based Islamic ideology and aggression. No comparison.

      For decades, in spite of the increasing attacks and vitriol, we did not perceive Islam as a threat.
      9/11 changed all that. The Islamists did exactly what the promised they would do. And there’s more on the way. The least we can do is acknowledge the threat, take it seriously, and fight it wherever it raises its ugly head. Even if liberals don’t want to.

      I’m not exactly alone. The Soldiers still serving in Iraq and Afghanistan are continuing to do the same mission I did when I was over there; kicking ass and being Islamofascists’ worst nightmare.
      I speak with fellow veterans all the time, and they feel the same. Good luck trying to convince us GWOT veterans all about the “peaceful religion of Islam”. We’ve seen the results.

      Iraq and Afghanistan are just two battlefields in the war with Islam. Islamic extremism not only exists among the Middle Eastern populace, but in the governments as well. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, all over.
      If the Middle East is so accommodating to Christians and Jews, how come the Islamists target them for destruction? If the Middle East is such a wonderful place, why all the muslim immigrants in Europe?

      Allot of them are there to spread the violent gospel according to Mohammad, and “introduce Sharia Law” to Britain:

      Europe has become an incubator for Islamist thought and political development. Since the early 1960s, Muslim Brotherhood members and sympathizers have moved to Europe and slowly but steadily established a wide and well-organized network of mosques, charities, and Islamic organizations. Unlike the larger Islamic community, the Muslim Brotherhood’s ultimate goal may not be simply “to help Muslims be the best citizens they can be,” but rather to extend Islamic law throughout Europe and the United States.

      As for “Christians on the warpath in the last century”: If you’re referring to Hitler, he wasn’t Christian, he was atheist. The Nazi state was the religion. He used references to “god” in order to bolster the Nazi Party, which was for all intent and purpose, the “god”.

      Bush earned his degrees because of his abilities. He could not have graduated had he failed.

      The ‘Bamster’ in spite of what you assume about his IQ and graduation class standing, has turned out to be a dud, and his first 100 days aren’t even up.

      Bill Ayers is a “distinguished” unrepentant terrorist radical and academic propagandist:

      Even the Democrats are concerned with THE ONE’s abysmal economic plans. The following link is to HuffPo, a leftwing site chock full of contributors and posters who worship Obama.

      Your talking points are hackneyed.

      Denmark also taxes their working people to death in order to support the part of the population that doesn’t. That’s a welfare state, not ‘economic freedom’.
      The European version of socialism works just fine….for those who off suck the teat of the public dole, for sure.

      The present state of the economy is being made worse by a socialist who believes he can tax/spend and bailout our way to prosperity. In free market capitalism, it doesn’t work that way.

      Obama’s poll numbers are diving. And his “press conference” last night did not help. He avoids hard questions, tap-dances around issues, and shows immature anger when criticized or questioned about his motives and policies. He’s in way over his head, and even his most ardent supporters are starting to doubt their Messiah. He’s looking like a dolt.

      Jimmy Carter has “respect” among the Palestinians (Hamas who want Jewish people dead, including you), Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and a host of other despots. The company he keeps sure does appreciate him.

      US immigration law applies to everyone, regardless of the country of origin. My ancestors, (the one’s who arrived on boats) came through Ellis Island, became LEGAL citizens, and assimilated into the culture. South of the border illegals do not. Your belief that illegal entrance makes for good citizenship is just as inane as it can be. We have federal statutes that describe, in detail, the penalties for illegal entrance as well as for harboring, aiding, abetting, and hiring illegals. It’s Title 8 of the U.S. Code, sections 1324 and 1325. You ought to read it before you spout nonsense about what constitutes “virtue”.

      Read about something other than stem cell research, and babies.

      I’m still waiting to be written under the table…with facts for a change.

      SFC MAC

  64. You don’t know it, because you didn’t take the time to look at the links, but you’ve just made a fool of yourself. I told you I was posting links showing that Wiki was as reliable as the Encyclopedia Britannica and I did. Did you also notice the link from the CIA, or did you rush right past it.

    More later.

    1. On the contrary. I took the time. I’ve read wiki, and the sites that point to all the discrepancies. Your skepticism is VERY selectve. But, that’s typical of leftwing “arguments”. You obviously did not bother to read the links that refute wiki, or the “no WMD” claims.

      Including the one about the bunkers discovered by the former AF Intel analyst.

      You look more foolish by the minnute.


  65. My experience is different, not lacking, and is, judging by your posts, broader, which is why I can pull analogies and information from a variety of areas rather than just one, over and over and over, as you do.

    I do not acknowledge your reports because they are by no means conclusinve. There are even more authoritative ones refuting them, which is why the prevailing thought regarding WMDs is that they didn’t exist. They had been there at one time (because the US gave them to Saddam!) which is why some thought they were there, but they weren’t any more. Each time it was trumpeted that evidence had been found, later stories corrected it. Even Wiki says it,

    with complete references, and when something is in question, wiki says so. If you disagree, try to get it changed, but I suspect you will instead make fun of wiki despite:

    so I’ll add that even the CIA says so.

    Fostering good will does have the effect of counter terrorism whether you admit it or not, and whether you make fun of the idea or not. There are many aspects of it, non involving military force.

    Your cruel attitude toward innocent Muslim civilian women and children is noted. Ugly though it is. (“I support the total eradication of Islamofascist swine and their supporters.” as if the women and children of any fighters don’t support them.)As is your ignoring the numerous actions that Christians have carried out agaisnt those of other religions over the years. Let that religion without fault cast the first stone against Muslims.

    Your selected reports of bad-acting individuals does not serve to indict the vast majority of peaceful Muslims.

    Your characterization of Sharia Law is based on the most extreme forms of it and not at all its most dominant forms. It’s not surprising that you don’t attempt to explain why such countries have more female leaders than your own.

    Obama needed no connections or legacy obligations to accomplish what he did. Bush would never have made it into Yale without legacy obligations and needed every aid he could get to get out again. He knew better than even to attempt to get into a demanding graduate school. Not to mention that he ran every business he was ever associated with into the ground costing his friends fortunes in investment money.

    As for his programs, they have already begun working within 60 days. Did you not the 500 point rise in the DOW yesterday? Not to mention house sales which went up more last month than in 6 years. Already it’s almost up to where it was when he came in. They will work because they will see things done in the US that have needed to be done for decades to bring the US up to first world standards. All this will greatly benefit international competitveness. Even economists are expecting his plan to work. You have no basis on which to call them “disastrous” at this early date with present conditions improving.

    You are aware, right, that the whole world aside from certain elements in the US, considers Jimmy Carter entirely competent and highly respects him…in contrast to guess who.

    Actually the US is very deficient in recognizing the skills and qualifications of its immigrants legal and illegal. The waste of folks with higher level degrees being left to drive cars and such is shameful. That does not apply to many Mexicans, but it does apply to many Russians and Eastern Europeans since their degree systems were quite different from the US’s, much more interdisciplinary and thus hard for the US to “translate” into a US degree. European HSM programs, on the other hand, are very well defined and specific in their requirements which are easily found on the web.

    In short, you have shown a very narrow military brain-washed view that you somehow have never allowed any outside information into. Maybe when and if you retire, you’ll realize what a huge propotion of the world’s people, a great number of them Muslims, are good people. You’ll be happier when you do.

    Even the CIA says so:

    1. djnor,

      If your experience were as “broad” as you claim, you wouldn’t resort to analogies involving babies and DNA. Your ideas never vary. It’s the same incessant mantra fof you ‘having more experience’ and your opinions being ‘more authoritative’. From what I’ve seen so far, neither is true.

      Wikipedia? Are you kidding? Is that the best you can come up with? Who needs to make fun of wikipedia, when its ridiculous propaganda is self-evident?

      If you’re as educated as you claim, you will avoid using Wikipedia for anything other than entertainment value. Wikipedia is an internet joke. It’s operated by a couple of leftists who only allow “facts” to be adjusted as they see fit. The problem is, they, like you, are impervious to the truth about WMDs being discovered, and you won’t find much that contradicts their opinions.

      The articles I provided ARE conclusive. If you bothered to actually read the citations I provided, you would know the type of material, the location, the amount, and how it was disposed of. Now how can any of that not be conclusive? Saddam Hussein’s duplicitous behavior clearly indicated his intent to continue with his WMD program. That is a fact. Saddam himself stated that unequivocally:

      “The factories are present,” an Iraqi aide tells Saddam on one of the tapes, made by the dictator in the mid-1990s while U.N. weapons inspectors were searching for Baghdad’s remaining stocks of weapons of mass destruction.
      “The factories remain, in the mind they remain. Our spirit is with us, based solely on the time period,” the aide says, according to the documents. “And [inspectors] take note of the time period, they can’t account for our will.”

      Some background on Wikipedia’s methods of altering facts, bias, and censorship:

      Once in awhile, they do forget to make things ‘disappear’:

      ……On July 2008, 550 metric tonnes of “yellowcake” the last major remnant of Saddam Hussein’s nuclear program, a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium, arrived in Montreal as part of a top-secret U.S. operation. This transport of the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment, included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a voyage across two oceans. The Iraqi government sold the yellowcake to a Canadian uranium producer, Cameco Corp., in a transaction the official described as worth “tens of millions of dollars.”

      In a January 26, 2004 interview with Tom Brokaw of NBC news, Mr. (David) Kay described Iraq’s nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs as being in a “rudimentary” stage. He also stated that “What we did find, and as others are investigating it, we found a lot of terrorist groups and individuals that passed through Iraq.”[83] In responding to a question by Mr. Brokaw as to whether Iraq was a “gathering threat” as President Bush had asserted before the invasion, Mr. Kay answered:
      Tom, an imminent threat is a political judgment. It’s not a technical judgment. I think Baghdad was actually becoming more dangerous in the last two years than even we realized. Saddam was not controlling the society any longer. In the marketplace of terrorism and of WMD, Iraq well could have been that supplier if the war had not intervened.
      ……In June 2004, the United States removed 2 tons of low-enriched uranium from Iraq.

      Oh yeah, here’s another piece of information you’ll never find on wikipedia:
      It’s quite long, and I know you’ll never read it, so here are some highlights and the link:

      It’s a fair bet that you have never heard of a guy called Dave Gaubatz. It’s also a fair bet that you think the hunt for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq has found absolutely nothing, nada, zilch; and that therefore there never were any WMD programmes in Saddam’s Iraq to justify the war ostensibly waged to protect the world from Saddam’s use of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons.

      Dave Gaubatz, however, says that you could not be more wrong. Saddam’s WMD did exist. He should know, because he found the sites where he is certain they were stored. And the reason you don’t know about this is that the American administration failed to act on his information, ‘lost’ his classified reports and is now doing everything it can to prevent disclosure of the terrible fact that, through its own incompetence, it allowed Saddam’s WMD to end up in the hands of the very terrorist states against whom it is so controversially at war.

      ……Having served for 12 years as an agent in the US Air Force’s Office of Special Investigations, Mr Gaubatz, a trained Arabic speaker, was hand-picked for postings in 2003, first in Saudi Arabia and then in Nasariyah in Iraq. His mission was to locate suspect WMD sites, discover threats against US forces in the area and find Saddam loyalists, and then send such intelligence to the Iraq Survey Group and other agencies.

      Between March and July 2003, he says, he was taken to four sites in southern Iraq — two within Nasariyah, one 20 miles south and one near Basra — which, he was told by numerous Iraqi sources, contained biological and chemical weapons, material for a nuclear programme and UN-proscribed missiles. He was, he says, in no doubt whatever that this was true.
      This was, in the first place, because of the massive size of these sites and the extreme lengths to which the Iraqis had gone to conceal them. Three of them were bunkers buried 20 to 30 feet beneath the Euphrates. They had been constructed through building dams which were removed after the huge subterranean vaults had been excavated so that these were concealed beneath the river bed. The bunker walls were made of reinforced concrete five feet thick.

      …… ‘They explained in detail why WMDs were in these areas and asked the US to remove them,’ says Mr Gaubatz. ‘Much of this material had been buried in the concrete bunkers and in the sewage pipe system. There were also missile imprints in the area and signs of chemical activity — gas masks, decontamination kits, atropine needles. The Iraqis and my team had no doubt at all that WMDs were hidden there.’

      There was yet another significant piece of circumstantial corroboration. The medical records of Mr Gaubatz and his team showed that at these sites they had been exposed to high levels of radiation.

      Mr Gaubatz verbally told the Iraq Study Group (ISG) of his findings, and asked them to come with heavy equipment to breach the concrete of the bunkers and uncover their sealed contents. But to his consternation, the ISG told him they didn’t have the manpower or equipment to do it and that it would be ‘unsafe’ to try.

      ‘The problem was that the ISG were concentrating their efforts in looking for WMD in northern Iraq and this was in the south,’ says Mr Gaubatz. ‘They were just swept up by reports of WMD in so many different locations. But we told them that if they didn’t excavate these sites, others would.’

      That, he says, is precisely what happened. He subsequently learnt from Iraqi, CIA and British intelligence that the WMD buried in the four sites were excavated by Iraqis and Syrians, with help from the Russians, and moved to Syria. The location in Syria of this material, he says, is also known to these intelligence agencies. The worst-case scenario has now come about. Saddam’s nuclear, biological and chemical material is in the hands of a rogue terrorist state — and one with close links to Iran.

      …… In 2005, the CIA held a belated inquiry into the disappearance of this intelligence. Only then did its agents visit the sites — to report that they had indeed been looted.

      And gee whiz, lookie what the leftwing rag New York Times actually published:

      In the weeks after Baghdad fell in April 2003, looters systematically dismantled and removed tons of machinery from Saddam Hussein’s most important weapons installations, including some with high-precision equipment capable of making parts for nuclear arms, a senior Iraqi official said this week in the government’s first extensive comments on the looting.

      The Iraqi official, Sami al-Araji, the deputy minister of industry, said it appeared that a highly organized operation had pinpointed specific plants in search of valuable equipment, some of which could be used for both military and civilian applications, and carted the machinery away.

      Dr. Araji said his account was based largely on observations by government employees and officials who either worked at the sites or lived near them.
      “They came in with the cranes and the lorries, and they depleted the whole sites,” Dr. Araji said. “They knew what they were doing; they knew what they want. This was sophisticated looting.”

      ……Dr. Araji said equipment capable of making parts for missiles as well as chemical, biological and nuclear arms was missing from 8 or 10 sites that were the heart of Iraq’s dormant program on unconventional weapons.

      Gawd only knows where those weapons were smuggled to, but the reports, classified and unclassified, point toward Syria.

      “Fostering good”…what good? In a muslim society rife with extremists? Obama kissing the ass of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ‘fostering good’? Please.

      Cruel attitude? Any less cruel than what we had to do to Japan to help end WWII? We nuked the hell out of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We didn’t mess around.

      Muslim women don’t mind joining their male counterparts in suicide bombings. It’s the Islamic equivalent of “equal opportunity”:
      “Dressed to kill, Female Suicide Bombers”

      And their children are being indoctrinated to become good little jihadists:

      By the way, Christians, (“Crusaders”, notably) haven’t been on the warpath for what…500 years? They fought against the muslims in direct response to the brutal Turkish Ottoman Empire. The 21st Century muslims, on the other hand, have started a brand new effort to achieve a world-wide Caliphate. They state that emphatically.

      Those ‘bad-acting’ individuals are not getting any resistance from the so-called “vast majority of peaceful muslims”. Where are they?

      My ‘characterization of Sharia Law comes straight from the source: the Koran.

      So, you’re saying the Bush only got his MBA and Undergraduate degrees because of “legacy obligations”? And all this time I thought that grades, term papers, essays, and studying had something to do with it. When you make silly comparisons about “legacy obligations” is when you really begin to grasp at straws.

      Obama’s “business” experience: He ran a foundation (Annenberg) as a “community activist” along with terrorist William Ayers. That ‘foundation’ funded radical groups like (surprise) ACORN.

      George W. Bush was the Governor of Texas. He began his career in the oil and gas business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy industry until 1986. There’s been no reports of it ‘being run into the ground’, by anyone. He also assembled a group of partners that purchased the Texas Rangers baseball franchise in 1989 and built the Ranger’s Ballpark at Arlington.

      Obama spent a little time as a “community organizer” and 142 days as Senator. That’s it. A fast track to a position of power does not mean the person has the competence to deal with it.

      Sarah Palin has more experience as Alaska governor than Obama ever had in his life.

      A time line for Obama: Pay close attention to the years 1981-1984 and 1985-1988. They describe his political indoctrination with mentors like Saul Alinsky and Frank Marshall Davis.

      The basis for labeling his socialist programs a disaster is because that’s exactly what they are.

      You cannot be this dense. You blather on and on like a simple-minded child. “Everything is hunky dory and you’re wrong about Obama because he’s like, the most wonderful, handsomest, smartest, savior on the planet”.

      Lady, it’s very hard to take you seriously, which is why I don’t.

      You really have the Barney Franks talking points down to a “T”. Too bad they’re just as much BS now as they were back in 2004, when, in spite of the Republican’s warnings to regulate the Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae programs, the Democrats refused. You can thank them for the collapsing economy.

      Free market enterprise and capitalism does not thrive very well under socialist tax, spend, and bailout measures. The country’s economy is in the toilet, but he grins like an idiot, frets over the NCAA, and insists everything’s okay. Here’s just a sample of prominent experts who agree that it is disastrous:

      Warren Buffett: Economy Has ‘Fallen Off a Cliff’,2933,506901,00.html

      Obama, Geithner Receive Failing Grades From Economists in Survey

      As for the Dow, it’s not doing so well, and hasn’t since Obama started his “programs”

      Study: Dow’s Decline Is Fastest for a New President in Nearly a Century

      House foreclosures are up, too. But that’s mostly because of the Democrat-created Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac disaster. The government forced those banks to lend to people who had terrible credit.

      Did you not see THE ONE’S poll numbers? They’re taking a nosedive. Even some liberals are waking up out of their comas and realizing that this socialist in an empty suit is destroying the economy.

      Jimmy Carter, competent? Respected? He botched Iran. He was and is an abject failure who never met a dictator he didn’t like. And his domestic policies drove inflation sky high and the economy to new lows….like guess who.

      Our immigration laws apply to everyone. Gain entrance legally, stay here legally, and obtain citizenship legally. It’s that simple.

      “Interdisciplinary degree systems” aside, it’s up to the prospective employee to fit the requirements for jobs, regardless of where.

      Brain washed? That’s pretty funny coming from someone steeped in leftwing philosophy and who wouldn’t recognize a real threat to Western Civilization even if it walked up to her, screamed “Allah U Akbar” and lit the fuse.

      As for the CIA report you cited: The report was written 3 years before 500 tons of Saddam’s ‘yellowcake’ was shipped from Iraq to Canada.

      They need to talk with Dave Gaubatz, The CIA is a day late and a dollar short.

      And, I am quite happy, thank you. I retired from the Army in 2006 after 30 years. I’m active in veteran’s organizations, and still keep in contact with Soldiers still serving here and in Iraq and Afghanistan. I also read extensively on the latest intelligence information readily available in open sources. You ought to do the same. You’ll learn something.

      And do come back. I’m still waiting to be “written under the table”.

      SFC MAC

  66. Your lack of civility does not become you, and personal attacks never strengthen any argument. For example, on one hand, you disparage my analogy regarding the differing experiences of midwives and doctors, and on the other hand, you make clear that you understood the point quite well. Apparently it wasn’t so bad.

    Still, you do not seem to realize how narrow your experience is and how biased your viewpoint by those experiences.

    You choose not to address my point of which kind of counter-terrorism is truly more effective. I’m not surprised, since to address the question would place your own activities in question, though it is entirely clear that it is your types of activities rather than mine that have increased the animosity of Muslim populations subject to them.

    You do Muslim populations a dire injustice in your judgement of them. Do you hold any other population responsible for the actions of bad apples from the same background? Shall I hold you responsible for any and all abuses of local populations carried out by anyone in the armed forces because you are a part of the armed forces?

    Apparently you studied only those elements of foreign cultures that have negative potential and didn’t even understand the difference between potential and actual.

    Did you understand the custom of hyperbole in Islamic speeches, which rather resembles that of extreme fundamentalist Christian preachers as well? It is only that.

    If you have never encountered Muslims that do not fit your stereotype of the extremists, exactly who were you fighting to free from Saddam’s domination over there? Maintaining that you have never encountered those non-extreme Muslims does not support your insistence that you did spend significant time in the general culture as a part of it. Your various statements are full of such inconsistencies.

    I have to totally dismiss your characterization of Brit Muslims. It is so totally unfair to so many, and as the person who actually lives here when you don’t, I do know more about it. I note again that you ignore my point about news versus the vast amont of good reality.

    Sharia law varies tremendously in its applications and severity. In many areas its women feel in no way restricted. Again, the Saudi version is among the most restrictive concerning women, but we ignore that. Note how several Muslim countries have had female leaders while the US still has had none.

    Yes, the comprehension to understand any field. It was Obama whose graduate work was done at a school for which the average IQ of the undergrad population is 136, and it was Obama that achieved graduate school grades high enough to put him in the top 10% of that graduate school, and that enabled him to become an editor of the law review of that graduate school. Sorry, but that means that he has a stronger mind that 90% of the people in that school, all of which can be assumed to have IQs significantly higher than 136, since they are in the graduate school rather than the undergrad.

    Those so-called “catastrophic policies” have been instituted in other first world nations, nearly all of which have the social democracy form of government, with good results for the people. In my blog, I have several posts devoted to the important areas in which they outperform the US. Perhaps its time we began to learn from them and their experiences.

    No, Muslim comes from the Judeo-Christian heritage. It shares the first five books of the Bible, and its origin story has it emerging from Hagar’s line. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam come from the same roots. That is fact. By the way, I have read their holy book.It was part of my studies. They do have verses that are hyperbole, verses that are ignored by all but the most extreme, just as Paul’s book in the Bible have such verses.

    Greg Palast is a world-respected highly awarded higly creditable journalist, and your insistence otherwise will not change that fact.

    Every story about Acorn being investigated by the FBI says “after Republican complaints”. Sorry, the FBI does not have a clean record regarding its persecution of left-leaning political groups. A few Acorn employees have been found to have done wrong. It was Acorn itself that identified them and turned them in. Acorn itself remains innocent until proved guilty in the minds of those who truly hold to American principles, which will not happen.

    As for highly skilled migrant status in the UK. Look up the requirements and see if you have them.I said before I won’t list my accomplishments for you, and I won’t be goaded into it.

    1. djcnor,
      Again, point by point:

      Your lack of experience coupled with the refusal to address the points I’ve made, don’t deserve even a modicum of respect. Try sticking to the subject instead of coughing up metaphors about DNA and midwives. Instead of acknowledging the very reports which dispute your myopic opinions, you continue to ignore the facts. This is tantamount to a child covering their ears and screaming “LALALALALALALA…I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”

      Now that’s a metaphor that fits.

      I’ve addressed your points; each and every one. Let me put it more succinctly: Counter-terrorism does not involve quaint little PR stunts like the British “We are the West” ad campaign, which is a ridiculous effort to persuade radical muslims “not to attack them anymore”. The response of the Imams in Britain has been less than receptive; in fact they think it’s kinda funny. I do too, considering that the muslims living in Western society like Britain should be expected to assimilate into the culture, not bomb it into submission to allah. Animosity against the West is part and parcel to Islam.

      No, I have a realistic approach to the modern 21st century Ottoman wannabes. I support the total eradication of Islamofascist swine and their supporters.
      That “abuses of local populations by the armed forces” accusation is something the New York Times would use. Tell you what, when a member of the armed forces straps a bomb to themselves and walks into a crowd of people shopping at a local market, screams “Jesus Christ is Great” and blows everyone to smithereens, then your position might have a tiny bit of merit. Until then, you’ve got all you can handle with the thousands of atrocities being committed by muslims responsible for the carnage.

      And yes, by virtue of the precepts of their religion they are all responsible.

      If the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, Catholics, Baptists, Scientologists or even wacky snake-handling Pentecostals, your weak assertion might have an iota of merit. Here, let me give you a fact to get in the way of your “argument’: There are no Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Catholic (with the exception of the IRA), Baptist, Scientologist, or wacky snake-handling Pentecostal terrorist groups. There ARE however, MANY, MANY muslim terrorist groups. Until and unless the muslim community shows any signs of being “moderate” or if there is ever a concerted effort to counter the dogma emanating from the pulpits of the mosques, let me know.

      You want abuse of local populations? Read all about what some of your muslim friends have done to the people of your own country. 7 July 2005 obviously didn’t leave enough of an impression. They even gather to “greet” returning British troops with insults and death threats.
      And this just happened in England not long ago:

      A Christian minister who has had heated arguments with Muslims on his TV Gospel show has been brutally attacked by three men who ripped off his cross and warned: ‘If you go back to the studio, we’ll break your legs.’
      The Reverend Noble Samuel was driving to the studio when a car pulled over in front of him. A man got out and came over to ask him directions in Urdu.
      Mr Samuel, based at Heston United Reformed Church, West London, said: ‘He put his hand into my window, which was half open, and grabbed my hair and opened the door.
      Then he grabbed my cross and pulled it off and it fell on the floor. He was swearing. The other two men came from the car and took my laptop and Bible.’
      ……Pakistan-born Mr Samuel, 48, who was educated by Christian missionaries and moved to Britain 15 years ago, said that over the past few weeks he has received phone-in calls from people identifying themselves as Muslims who challenged his views.
      ‘They were having an argument with me,’ he said. ‘They were very aggressive in saying they did not agree with me. I said those are your views and these are my views.’
      He said that he, his wife Louisa, 48, and his son Naveed, 19, now fear for their safety, and police have given them panic alarms. ‘I am frightened and depressed,’ he said. ‘My show is not confrontational.’

      The al Qadea and Taliban make a habit out of abusing every local population they control.

      I came into contact with those foreign cultures. I know the difference between theory and application.

      Fundamentalist Christian preachers haven’t advocated flying planes into buildings or suicide bombings, Imams do.

      In Iraq, besides eliminating a terrorist supporter and WMD manufacturer, we fought to free these people from more of this:

      US-led investigators have located nine trenches in Hatra containing hundreds of bodies believed to be Kurds killed during the repression of the 1980s. The skeletons of unborn babies and toddlers clutching toys are being unearthed, the investigators said.

      We found hundreds of mass graves like that. He also slaughtered 5000 Kurds with WMDs, which you incredibly insist he never had. He used sarin on that particular occasion. If you still don’t believe that Hussein used WMDs on those people, I can provide the graphic pictures.
      I personally had Iraqis come up and shake my hand and thank me. My fellow Soldiers have often had the same experience. They are thankful, even if you aren’t. The only ones pissed at our efforts are of course, the Islamic terrorists. Big surprise.

      Some of those Brit muslims have been responsible for the funneling of support to their comrades in the Middle East, and well as recruiting new jihadists right under the noses of the British population. Go ahead and ignore it…at your own peril.

      Sharia Law is brutal and oppressive. But again, if a woman chooses to submit to that in a Western country no less, that’s on her. The women born into and forced to live in Islamic nation-states have two options: obey or get beheaded. Several muslim countries have female leaders? What planet are you from? Did Saudi Arabia elect a female president without telling anyone? I remember you saying that you’re from a “small town in West Virginia”. Didn’t they have newspapers, T.V. and radio? Does Nancy Pelosi or Hillary Clinton ring a bell? America has hundreds of women in Congress, Senate, and in the current and past White House cabinets. Iraq just recently had an influx of female Parliament members thanks to the efforts of the “evil satan”.

      Obama’s comprehension skills are sorely lacking for someone who is “book smart”. Your assuming that he has a high IQ based on his college education. Okay, then you should be able to apply the same to George W. Bush. He has an undergraduate degree from Yale (1968) and an MBA from Harvard (1975). The Left is infamous for ranting about Bush’s supposed lack of intelligence. On the other hand, they would often resort to calling him an ‘evil genius’. Their hatred of Bush, like their minds, is schizophrenic.

      Obama’s education has not served him well, as evidenced his feckless domestic and foreign policies. His disastrous bailouts and tax and spend orgies, prove that economics is not his strong suit. Our deficit will triple by the time he’s finished. Not only that, but Mr. smart guy appointed a TAX CHEAT for treasury secretary who’s assisting in this deplorable assassination of our economy. A smart economist allows free market enterprise to run its course, without allot of government inferference, and does not reward failure.
      He bailed out hundreds of banks and businesses that went tits up, in part because of the Democrats’ Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac debacle, and in part because of their own mismanagement.
      BILLIONS of OUR (not your) tax money is being thrown into this bottomless abyss.

      Not. Smart.

      Since some of his “education” came from corrupt Chicago politics, communist mentors, and hate-spewing reverends, it’s no wonder he’s an abject failure when it comes to confronting America’s enemies. He refers to Islamic terrorists as “those folks”. Yeah, that’ll scare em’.
      He’s so bad, he’s actually making Jimmy Carter look competent. And that’s saying allot.

      You know it’s bad when a socialist like Obama gets lectures from Euro socialists for being too socialist.

      Obama this week urged the world’s top economies to adopt aggressive, America-sized spending programs. “It’s very important to make sure that other countries are moving in the same direction, because the global economy is all tied together,” he said.

      But on the other side of the Atlantic, European Union governments have spurned entreaties to let funds flow into their staggering economies. “Europe has done what it needed to do,” says Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker, who is also chairman of the 16-member euro zone, adding that the U.S.’s appeals “were not to our liking.”
      The issue is expected to dominate next month’s London summit of leaders from the G-20 group of top economies. “I do not have high expectations for London,” says Nicolas Véron, a scholar at the Brussels-based economic think tank Bruegel. “Not everyone will follow the U.S. just because of Obama. Global solidarity solutions are fiendishly difficult both to decide and to enforce. There is a growing realization that regional or national responses are preferable wherever possible.”,8599,1884881,00.html

      *GASP* The Euro left just had a flash of brilliance!

      The Koran splits from the Bible after the first five books and goes off on a tangent. Paul’s misogynist verses pale in comparison to Mohammad’s trash talk about the female gender. The Koran stipulates wife beating and treating women as total property of muslim males. Not exactly equal opportunity. Muslims are simply following the violent, anti-Jew, anti-Christian, he-man woman hating crap set down in the Koran.

      Greg Palast is a raving lunatic. I’ve read his opinions, and came to that conclusion in no time flat.

      Here’s a respected journalist, Andrew Goldberg, who writes for the Atlantic Monthly. He describes what the intelligence community (in the Joint Forces Command) already knew (for instance) about Hussein’s terrorist connections:

      ….Goldberg wrote that he learned about one al Qaeda connection “”while I was interviewing Al Qaeda operatives in a Kurdish prison in Sulaimaniya. There, a man whom Kurdish intelligence officials identified as a captured Iraqi agent told me that in 1992 he served as a bodyguard to Ayman al-Zawahiri, bin Laden’s deputy, when Zawahiri secretly visited Baghdad.””
      His name was Qassem Hussein Mohammed. He told Goldberg “that his involvement in Islamic radicalism began in 1992 in Baghdad, when he met Ayman al-Zawahiri.
      Qassem said that he was one of seventeen bodyguards assigned to protect Zawahiri, who stayed at Baghdad’s Al Rashid Hotel, but who, he said, moved around surreptitiously. The guards had no idea why Zawahiri was in Baghdad, but one day Qassem escorted him to one of Saddam’s palaces for what he later learned was a meeting with Saddam himself.”

      ACORN was investigated “after Republican complaints”? Wrong. A lot of those complaints were submitted by citizens at the voting polls who were approached by ACORN lackeys. The blatant fraud was so widespread, it was impossible to ignore, especially by the FBI. ACORN only divulges information under pressure from law enforcement. They did not volunteer. ACORN’s criminal activities go back decades, and their practices have always been suspect. Obama has close ties to them and even bragged about being one of their “community activists”. I’d suggest you do more research on that subject, but I know you won’t, so I’ll provide more links:

      Last Thursday a federal grand jury in Kansas City indicted four persons working for the group Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, accusing them of submitting more than 15,000 voter registration forms with fictitious names, phony signatures and bogus addresses.

      ……with an FBI probe underway, millions of dollars in back taxes owing, and a racketeering lawsuit pending, it (ACORN) may finally have to answer for its many misdeeds.

      A compilation of ACORN and Obama’s election crimes, which include perjury, forgery, identity theft and election fraud:

      Needless to say, with ACORN’s established criminal record, it won’t be difficult for the FBI to “persecute” the perpetrators.

      And there’s that midwives analogy again. What does birthing babies have to do with the subject of debating the connection between Islamic terrorists and what makes them tick? Trust me, sweet pea, the things I experienced with regard to the Islamic culture, were far removed from any “midwife/doctor” scenario.
      Some food for thought: I’m disparaging the ridiculous circular reasoning in your “arguments”.

      My viewpoints are based on my varied and considerable experience, which don’t necessarily come from books.

      Allot of illegal aliens from Mexico claim to have “skilled migrant status” too. The migrant aspect of your resume does not impress me. Sorry. Your accomplishments, what ever they are, obviously have nothing to do with the debate we’re having.

      You have not shown one bit of cognizance about the world wide threat posed by Islamic terrorists, their doctrine, their methods, or the influence they have across Great Britain.

      But please do keep up the entertaining chatter. I’m still waiting to be “written under the table”.

      SFC MAC

  67. You remind me of an encounter I had today talking about delivering babies in the UK. It seems there was a survey of women obstetricians and midwives concerning which conditions of childbirth they wanted for themselves. The doctors, having seen all too much of when things went wrong, chose Ceasarian. The midwives, having seen predominantly when things went right said homebirth. You’ve seen all too much of when thengs went wrong and it has biased your viewpoint.

    Apparently you think only those with counter-terrorism experience have valid opinions. Nonsense. In fact, I challenge your assumption of what true counter-terrorism is. Your activities have “confirmed” the idea of Americans that Muslims without international experience have been fed through madrasas. My activities have shown every Muslim I came in contact with that such stereotypes were false. I would say the latter is much more effective counter-terrorism. So in actuality, I have more real counter-terrorism experience than you.

    Obama has the intelligence to comprehend any field of information he approaches. Bush does not and has proven it over and over again. By the way, it was Obama I was talking about regarding grammatical sentences. I have been a professional proofreader and am perfectly capable of writing strictly grammatical and perfectly spelled sentences myself, but for the web, I simply write as I think, or more closely, as I would talk to the person and give all consideration to communication.

    I will bet that I know more about Islamic doctrine than you do, having taken two relevant courses in college, Judeo-Christian Heritage, which covered all religions of the book, how they differ from each other, and on what points different divisions of each of these major religions differ. This included reading the holy books. I then studied Great Living Religions, which expanded the knowledge and comparisons into other major religions present and past.

    Being Jewish, myself, by conversion, I have taken considerable interest in the Middle East both historical and present and continue to do so. My sources go beyond Al Jazerra and other English-language publications of the region to individuals, scientists and others, from a good number of these cultures whom I have known personally.

    Spending time in Europe as a member of the military is not at all the same as living and working as an ordinary resident of that country as I have. You spent most of your time with other Americans. I have spent almost none. Housing and work was arranged for you in an American enclave. Not so for me. Your enclave and how you spent your days separated you from the experience I have had. Mine is closer to the experience of the immigrant to one of the lands I have lived in, and nobody has as much motivation to “learn” a culture as completely and quiclkly as possible than an immigrant. Good will regarding a foreign army member fluctuates with the activities of the government. Good will regarding civilian individuals, not nearly as much.

    You comment about Spain is irrelevant and an insult to all the perfectly peaceful Muslims in Spain, and there are many. It was, after all, Muslim for a long enough time for the religion to have left lasting traces in the culture.

    No, you have not soundly debunked the “false pretext” argument. In fact, your version is held by a tiny tiny minority. Your sources are biased and discredited.

    Since I happen to live in Britain and have daily contact with Britain’s Muslims, I know a lot more about what’s going on with them than you. Do you not realize that the bad incidents make the news because the news is about the unusual. The usual is not a news story.

    I trust Al Jazeera because, aside from the Israeli/Palestine issue, it gives attention to stories across the world in proportion to the people of the world affected by whatever the story is about, and because I have found even their stories about the US to be valid and well-researched. Heck, during the election season, we turned it on one day and they were interviewing folks from a tiny town in WV (the state I come from originally). No US media were doing a better job of grass roots reporting.

    Yes, I’ve spoken with VietNam vets. They were my friends. One was my uncle, who later died there. And one was my cousin, who was a pilot there, and talked quite a bit with all us cousins because we asked. He said that Tom Paxton song that goes “We have met the enemy and they have been smashed.” about soldiers of both sides trying to avoid situations in which they might die or be forced to kill came closest to it.

    Quote where I called myself a genius, though it is quite possible Obama fits the technical description.

    I foresaw Bush making a total mess of the country, just as he had made a total mess of every business he’d ever been involved in. He did steal both elections as is fully documented by Greg Palast and others. The statistical evidence for the 2004 is as trong as DNA evidence. If you believe the one, logically, you must believe the other. To do otherwise is to defy logic. Try, if you can, to explain why a 1 in 250,000 chance is basically no chance at all in one case, and not in another, because that is what you have to do to have some reason for calling statistical evidence asinine.

    I know all about the Acorn business. Acorn was required by law to submit every application for voter registration it obtained, not matter how unlikely to be judged acceptable by the registrar whose responsibility it was to make such determinations. Acorn did just as the law said it was to do.

    My major accomplishments are numerous. I won’t list them. let the fact that I have highly skilled migrant status and the requirements for that speak for them. And I’m a Ms., not a Mr.

    1. djcnor,

      A referrence to babies….Another irrelevant metaphor.

      I’ve seen both good and bad, and I know the difference between the conjectures of inexperienced arm-chair critics, and those who actually lived the experiences they speak of. Hint: It ain’t you.

      You have more “counter terrorism” experience than me? You’re hilarious, and no you don’t. What real ‘contact’ have you had? “Counter terrorism” doesn’t involve encounters with muslim locals who probably get a kick out of pulling one over on an infidel. Go down to Anjem Choudary’s mosque and try practicing your “counter terrorism” methods.
      Where are the ones that defy the “stereotype”? I’m still waiting for so-called “moderate” muslims to break their silence and come out in identifiable numbers. Tacit disapproval doesn’t count.
      Sorry, but your “experience” comes nowhere near the knowledge and hands on experience I’ve had in the Middle East and working as a senior intelligence analyst, both strategic and tactical. Counter-terrorism involves the collection of intelligence, and analysis of terrorist cells and individuals. It also covers a broad range of tracking their movements, associations, financial activity, and training. That includes what goes on in their neighborhood communities. MI5 has their hands full.

      When muslim extremists in your country, who are growing by leaps and bounds, go from saber rattling to going through with their promise to “offer Sharia Law to Britain”, you’ll have much more of what you experienced on 7 July, 2005. Your Parliament isn’t helping matters much by accommodating radical muslims every time they scream ‘discrimination’ because they refuse to assimilate into Western culture.
      1200 years of muslim spin is finally taking its effect.

      I’ve been face to face with muslims both in the Middle East and in western countries. It pretty much did away with my heretofore romanticized “Midnight at the Oasis” ideas.
      None of your ‘experiences’ are even remotely close to what I’ve seen and done. To compare your silly “experiences” with mine is fatuous.

      The “intelligence to comprehend any field of information”? Obama? Now I know without a doubt, you’re delusional. Have you actually read his unrehearsed comments? Obama is a dolt who can’t even articulate without a teleprompter. Have you paid attention to his “comprehension” skills with regard to economic and foreign policy? Have you heard about the catastrophic policies he’s putting into place? He’s a complete embarrassment, and you don’t even have the wherewithal to be embarrassed over your adoration for this empty suit.
      This is just a brief description of his latest screw-ups:

      The difference between Judeo-Christian philosophy and Islamic doctrine is that they’re diametrically opposed. You had to take a couple of college courses to figure that out?

      By the way, the study of Islamic doctrine and Middle Eastern history was part of my training. So was Soviet doctrine, and Balkans history. I was also in Korea, and had to learn about North Korean doctrine, weapons, and tactics. During the process of my intelligence training, I was required to read books written on everything from sociology to warfare by Sun Zu and Carl von Clausewitz. Aside from the numerous military schools and academies I’ve attended, I have an Associates Degree in Applied Science.

      You’re a Jewish liberal who has never been exposed to the hostile environment of an Islamic nation-state. The reading of publications and cavorting with scientists of other cultures within the benevolent confines of a Western country, is much different than being subjected to the brutality of an Islamic state with no way out. In other words, you have the privilege of living in a free society that protects your right to speak your mind as you see fit. The irony is that the radical muslims living in Britain would like to transform it (and the rest of the world) into something that resembles the Islamic hellholes they came from. And you’re giving them the forum to do it.

      By the way, since you’re Jewish, you might want to read just a few examples from the ‘peaceful religion of Islam’: (the Koran)

      XVI.8: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you (again return to disobedience) we too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.

      II.161: Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all.

      IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

      IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God’s path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward. (Must be those 72 virgins)

      VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God’s.

      4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

      5.51: O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

      Just one of the verses concerning women:
      4.34: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)”

      I worked and lived among ordinary civilians as well as military members of other countries. When housing was not available, I lived on the economy. (Off base) I also learned about other languages, German in particular. Good will fluctuates with the relationship between governments, as well as the contact between American troops and the host nation. The “good will” thing hinges on how much any particular country likes us or hates us on any given day. When you’re the biggest guy on the block, you’re disliked for being powerful, yet you’re expected to protect others. If we take the initiative and get involved, we’re hated. If we don’t, we’re hated. We tried being isolationist, and we still got dragged into two world wars we didn’t start.

      John Gibson, a Fox News commentator summed it up:

      “The world wanted us to save them from the Soviets. We did. The world wanted us to do something about Saddam. (And the rest of terrorism, for that matter) We did, and then the world decided we did a bad thing because we didn’t ask their permission for each and every step in doing what needed to be done.”

      My point about Spain was on courage and those who realize that Islam is a threat to everyone, including Spain. Running with your tail between your legs doesn’t get much respect, especially from Islamofascists. Even after Spain appeased al Qaeda by pulling out of Iraq, muslims still operated and planned more attacks in the country. That’s gratitude for ya.

      I presented facts that directly refuted everything held dear by the Bush/America-bashing crowd.
      Those sources were both military and civilian personnel who discovered those weapons, and were responsible for securing them, placing them in sealed containers, shipping them out of Iraq, and ultimately destroying them. The New York Times and the BBC were two of the news outlets that reported the WMD discoveries. They are two of the biggest leftwing publications on the planet, and far from being sympathetic to the U.S. or our mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. The WMDs were real, and they at least had the integrity to report what was found. Your refusal to accept that they were discovered, can only be explained as a puerile attempt to ignore the truth. They were found. Deal with it.

      Maybe, at some point during your “daily contact with Britain’s muslims” you can ask them to convince the rest of their religious sect to worship peacefully and respect other religions when they do the same. Tell them to stop using “Allah” and “Mohammed” as an excuse for their violence or the “Great Satan” will have to bomb them back to the stoneage, which in their case, would only set them back about a week. Tell them if they want to subjugate their own people to the yolk of Islamofascism, that’s one thing. Just don’t expect the rest of us to follow suit.

      Good Luck.

      I know a lot more than you about what’s going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bad incidents was all the MSM would cover, until we won.

      A pro-al Qaeda news source valid and well researched? I bet you think MEMRI is reliable too. Tell me, do they ever do ‘grassroots’ reporting on the victims of Islamic terrorism?

      That’s a trick question.

      I had a cousin who was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam and was killed there. When I went through basic training at Ft. Jackson South Carolina in 1976, some of my Drill Sergeants were Vietnam vets. I personally served with and had many friends who were Vietnam Veterans. Their reaction to the way they were treated by the media and the anti-war protesters was infuriated, to say the least.

      The ‘genius’ comment was an allusion to your “136 IQ” boast, although you’ve demonstrated little of it here. Anyone who thinks Obama is smart, doesn’t have much acumen.

      You’re pissed that GW backed up his threat to force Hussein to comply and also strike back at the Taliban and al Qadea where they live. The U.N. specifically told Iraq to comply with the Resolutions, cooperate with the inspectors, and cease and desist with his WMD program.
      Hussein violated every single resolution, kicked out the inspectors, and continued research and development on WMD. He also gave support to and communicated with terrorist groups. We had to go back into Iraq to finish the job we started in 1991. There’s no doubt he would have been a major contributor to terrorist operations if we had tried to limit action only to Afghanistan. Those are well-documented facts.

      Bush also kept America safe for the remainder of his term, and allowed our intelligence agencies to effectively use surveillance to thwart terrorist threats in the U.S.
      Obama, on the other hand, is too preoccupied with kissing their ass and making a mess of our economy.

      Greg Palast is a certifiable nutcase. He “predicted” that the 2006 Congressional elections were going to be “stolen from the democrats”, and railed about Karl Rove “fixing the 2008 election”. The man needs medication. And your DNA comparison is still asinine.

      ACORN is being investigated by the FBI on several felonies including embezzlement, fraud, and intimidation. They did NOT do as the law prescribed. That’s why they’re being investigated.

      The only accomplishments I’ve seen from you is a propensity to spout hackneyed B.S. and claim to know so much about so little. A ‘migrant with skills’? Like that’s unique, MS. Ph.D.

      SFC MAC

  68. Make that a clueless Ph.D. in biochemistry. In other words, not clueless in the least. It amazes me how quickly folks on the right resort to insults. However, with that Ph.D. and two other degrees as well, and the highly skilled migrant status that enables me to live and work freely in other countries, I’m impervious to it.

    The imbecile is not the guy who did graduate work where the average undergrad IQ is 136 and came out in the top10% (only those get his cum laude status) not to mention editing the law review, and not to mention his ability to actually talk in gramattical sentences on a regular basis.

    I know a lot more abut Euro good will and how it has changed than you, having lived here on and off for 20 years. Yes, there was much good will until Bush.

    …And those other countries pulled out at the earliest opportunities having been dragged in under false pretenses, which is part of why they are unhappy with the US. The vast majority of Bit Muslims, like all Muslims, are not extremists.

    …I read opinions from the war zones from both sides, as I said, finding Al Jazeera much more creditable than just about any US media source.

    …Sorry. I was alive for the VN war, and I know th difference between a press free to tell the whole story, as Al Jazeera has done for Iraq and Afghanistan, and an imbedded press fully under control of the military of one side. It amazes me that you don’t.

    …Yes, I foresaw it from New York. Why do you think I chose to leave the US after my fellow Americans let Bush steal yet another election? I know you’ll disute that, but the stats that prove it are as strong as the stats that make DNA evidence so strong. A 1 in 250,000 chance is a 1 in 250,000 chance, whether it the chance of identifying the wrong person using DNA or the chance of so many voting anomalies all falling in Bush’s direction as far as they did without outright manipulation and corruption.

    …Are you dense? Did I not say myself that we missed the people rather than the buildings?

    …And yes, I have experience. I’ve lived in 4 different countries as an ordinary working person, living as the locals live, not to mention that melange of all cultures that is New York and the world of science that I’ve been a member of. And I do have as valuable and authoritative opinion as yours, and a better informed one. If I’ve preserved a bit of unworldliness and naivette at 58, that’s a major accomplishment in itself. Thanks for the compliment.

    You have no idea of how broad my sources are, nor apparenty how narrow yours are.

    Keep writing if you wish. I’ll still be civil under insults, and I’ll still do my best to write you under the table.

    1. djcnor,

      Biochemistry. How interesting. No counter-terrorism experience though. Big difference, Mr. Ph.D.
      The imbecile is the guy who thinks a “136 IQ” makes him knowledgeable on things out of his league.
      Spend less time talking about how ‘smart’ you are and prove how much you know about the subject we’ve (I’ve) been discussing.

      BTW: The next time you mention your ‘ability to actually talk in gramattical sentences on a regular basis’ use spell check. Some of your written ‘grammattical’ sentences have misspelled grammar.

      So, far you’ve given no indication that you actually know anything about the Middle East, terrorist threats, or Islamic doctrine. As we say in America: Don’t quit your day job.

      As for your missing the World Trade Center victims and not the buildings: Well, it’s too bad the Islamic terrorists didn’t call ahead before they decided to destroy “the boxes the Chrysler Building and the Empire State Building came in”. I lost some fellow military members in the Pentagon attack. I guess some people, pre-occupied with aesthetic design, would make a point to complain about the five-sided shape.

      During my Army career, I spent 10 and a half years in the Euro theater of operations.
      That “good will” was as flexible as the time of day. Didn’t matter who was U.S. president although I will say before ‘Jesus Christ rock star’ got elected, Bubba did a bang up job kissing their ass except when he bombed Kosovo and pissed off the Serbs. He even hit the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, in spite of warnings (given by intelligence people I worked with) that it was not the right target. Now, that’s a hell of a way to treat campaign contributors. But, I digress.

      “…And those other countries pulled out at the earliest opportunities….”

      Like Spain after Madrid was bombed by muslims who are “not all extremists”? Coercion doesn’t count.

      As for ‘false pretense’, I’ve already soundly debunked that assertion, and it doesn’t help your side of the argument to keep spewing the “Bush lied” mantra. He did not.

      You really need to brush up on the current state of muslim affairs in Britain. The extremists are much more vocal, influential, and apparently acceptable to the British government and population.
      Otherwise things like this wouldn’t be taking place:

      Let’s see, you trust Al Jazeera more than any other source of information? Is that because you think it’s unbiased? Or because you’d rather read their version of the ‘evil Satan’ as opposed to the anti-American tripe in the New York Times? See? We even have our own “Al Jazeera’s” in this country.

      I was alive during the Vietnam War too. The press did an amazing job selling the war as “lost”, when in fact it wasn’t….until the Democrats in Congress pulled the plug on funding. Ever speak with any Vietnam Vets? Or did you get all your “trustworthy” information from the Viet Cong? Or Jane Fonda?

      While in Iraq, we had embedded journalists following us around all the time. With the exception of classified information, none of them were restricted from what they could do or print. Some supported the mission, some did not. Once the war came to a successful conclusion, Iraq dropped from the headlines. Success doesn’t sell. I’m surprised you haven’t noticed.

      This proves that you are absolutely ridiculous and does not reflect the mind of a self-described ‘genius’:

      “…Yes, I foresaw it from New York. Why do you think I chose to leave the US after my fellow Americans let Bush steal yet another election?……”

      You “foresaw Bush trying to “steal another election”? That’s hilarious, since he stole neither one. Newsflash: Some of the most leftwing papers in the U.S. to include the Washington Post and the New York Times, conducted their own independent investigations and came to the same conclusion: Bush won Florida, to include the Electoral College. Your DNA metaphor is just plain asinine.

      You want cheating and voter fraud? As much as you claim to be so well informed and “knowledgeable” you completely ignore Obama’s ACORN myrmidons and their criminal activities throughout his campaign:
      They registered homeless people, dead people, illegal aliens, and even had people go to several polls to try to vote more than once. They did a good job for The Commander-in Thief.

      I’ve lived in and been deployed to 8 countries. I’ve experienced the customs, traditions, languages, and political aspects of each, in peace and war. To this well-traveled, experienced 51 year old, your major accomplishment is nothing more than arrogant puffery masquerading as “authoritative opinion”.

      “You have no idea of how broad my sources are, nor apparenty how narrow yours are.”

      Well so far, Mr. PhD, the only “sources” you’ve provided are your affinity for al Jazeera, your frequent flyer miles, and your “degree in biochemistry”.

      I’m still waiting for you to “write me under the table”.

      Right now, I’m too busy laughing.

      SFC MAC

  69. Everyone has the right to speak. Sorry, you will not convince me that George Bush was anything but an imbecile who made the wrong choices at every single turn. In the end, just as at home, your safely is dpendent most on the good will of your neghbors, and George Bush utterly squandered the good will of or fellow nations, nations which have hundreds of years more experience than we do.

    And sorry, but George Bush did his very very best to give Americans the false impression that Iraq was involved in the terrorist attack. He succeeded so well that a lot of Americans still believe it.

    Your military experience in Iraq does not impress me. It simply tells me you spent a major part of the Bush administration in a situation where your sources of information were entrely biased and restricted.

    Saddam threatened but did nothing. I don’t care what was found. I wouldn’t have care if there were WMD’s which I still do not believe there were. The restrictions on the press during these wars has been so severe as to totally destroy my confidence in information coming from one side of the war. The opinions of the civilians on the ground are much more convincing, and they say things have been worse since we came than before. They have also been worse for Americans.

    On 9/11 (I mis-typed, I was 30 blocks away), my very first response was to say “Oh no! And look who’s President”. I foresaw all that came afterwards and continues to happen as a result of that. You do not solve terrorism by making more enemies, causing more of the type of suffering that creates terrorists. Nor does torture justify torture. It just motivates more of it, most of it carried out on innocents, and all of it shameful.

    On 9/11, no war was started, unless it was a war of 19 Saudis against the US, which is like the war of a bee on a human. A reasonable response would have been to pressure the Saudis to stop their propagation of extreme Islam through their madrasas.

    By the way, New Yorkers never missed the towers. We thought them ugly and called them “the boxes the Chrysler Building and the Empire State Building came in. We did miss the people who worked in them. In fact, for a few month, I was one of those working in the Borders on the bottom floor of 5 and I still knew people working there. The influence of the financial sector on the city was never good. It pushed the things people come to live in New York for out to the other burroughs. We are also not sky-line oriented. That’s tourist thought.

    And I am not in London. I am in Norwich.

    Never-the-less, I have as valuable and authoritative opinion as yours, and a more generally informed one since my info comes from across the world and I take the view of a world-oriented person. That’s my opinion.

    Thanks for taking the trouble to write though. It’s always good to know when my writing sets off sparks.

    1. djcnor,

      When I encounter people like you, it only re-affirms my opinion of the clueless.

      Point by point:

      1. When it comes to public opinon (Euro) you can’t squander ‘good will’ where it barely existed in the first place. Sorry, but the United States will never ask you for a permission slip before we defend ourselves. Many countries in the world look to the U.S. to be the world cop, and jeer from the sidelines while we do the heavy lifting.

      But, Britain, Australia, Poland, Canada, Germany, and a host of other coalition forces were there as well. We didn’t “squander” too much, now did we?

      In case you haven’t noticed, muslim extremists target Britain in the war against the West. If you think your country can do a better job (capitulation doesn’t count), then by all means step up to the plate, mate.

      2. At no time did he say that Saddam was directly involved in the attacks. Cite one instance where he did. He did, however, stress the fact that Iraq was a threat and no where was that more evident than Saddam’s own behavior, support of terrorism, and our subsequent discovery of the weapons.

      I don’t care that you’re “not impressed”, especially since you have no such experience, military or otherwise. You’re very presumptuous for someone who never spent one day in Iraq with me or my fellow troops. There’s also plenty of ‘open source’ information to show you, unequivocally, just how wrong you are. The main stream media hasn’t exactly done back flips over our victory, and you certainly won’t see “Victory in Iraq” which is a done deal, blazened across the headlines of the New York Times. Try reading the opinions of those in the war zone: Michael Yon and Bill Roggio are two former Soldiers-turned journalists embedded with Army units in Iraq and Afghanistan. Here are their websites: and

      I dare say that they have a hell of a lot more experience than you.

      As someone who was there, I’m damned glad we got Hussein and the WMD before they could be used. What I saw and experienced, made a believer out of me. While you were sitting on your ass, I was actually in a combat zone as part of the intelligence gathering operations. I was not restricted under any circumstances. Now, tell me what’s your experience besides reading the propaganda in The Guardian?

      3. “The opinions of the civilians on the ground are much more convincing, and they say things have been worse since we came than before. They have also been worse for Americans.”

      That statement right there proves what an ass you are. This is the gist of your spiel: “I don’t care that the “non-existent” WMDs were found, and you can’t make me, so there.”
      You don’t realize just how foolish you look. Pity. Saddam was just many of the threats that exist in the Middle East…but not anymore, is he?

      The press came and went from Iraq and Afghanistan freely. Some were embeded with coalition troops, some just sat in their air conditioned hotel rooms and reprinted whatever they got from al Jazeera. As soon as it became apparent that the war was being won, they un-assed the country and went to other parts to look for bad news.

      Sorry, but the opinions of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, the success of the war you hoped America would lose, as well as the Iraq and Afghan populations who benefit from our efforts, far outweigh the opinion of a Euro effete (in Norwich) who can’t differentiate between a terrorist attack and what Obama now refers to as a “man-caused disaster”. You’ve never spoken with any of them. You dismiss anything contrary to your made-up mind. How shockingly stupid.

      To not strike back against the region of the world responsible for terrorism, would have indeed made things worse for Americans. By the way, I’m all for taking out Saudi Arabia, too.

      4. My first response is to say: Look who gave al Qaeda the green light: the President you fawned over before Bush was elected: Bubba Clinton. His “response” to Khobar Towers, the U.S. Embassy attacks in Kenya and Tanzania, the USS Cole, and the FIRST World Trade Center attack in 1993, was to wag-the-dog in Somalia and the Balkans.
      Oh by the way: The Sudanese arrested Bin Laden in 1996, and offered to extradite him. Bubba refused. He never did take the war on terrorism as seriously as Monica’s mouth-to-crotch resuscitation. Three times after Aug. 20, 1998, when Clinton ordered the only missile strike of his presidency against bin Laden’s organization, the CIA came close enough to pinpointing bin Laden that Clinton authorized final preparations to launch. In each case, (Clinton’s) doubts about the intelligence aborted the mission. Bin Laden got away.

      You “foresaw all that came afterwards and continues to happen as a result of that.” You’ve got to be joking. From where? The comfort of your livingroom watching the telly?

      The notion that our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan “created” terrorists is like saying Nazis were “created” because we invaded Germany. Islamic extremists have been around long before we decided to fight back. The Nazis, Japs, and Italians didn’t roll over and neither will the ragheads. Enemies don’t like it when you fight back, especially on their own turf.

      Torture motivates torture? Where did you get that vapid idea? Last I checked, the jihadists had it down to a fine art, and didn’t care what kinds of methods we use to extract information, other than using the publicity to get the panties of people like you in a wad.

      You never let the facts get in the way of a good America bashing.

      5. You’re right. The FIRST war against the United States was started in Tehran in 1979, with the embassy hostage taking. It continued to get closer in proximity, especially during Clinton’s tenure, but no one took it seriously. It culminated with the attack on 9/11. What part of Islam declaring war on the West don’t you get?

      The 19 hijackers were a composite of Middle Eastern countries:

      15 were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt and one from Lebanon. They received training and indoctrination in Afghanistan. Khalid Sheik Mohammad and Bin Laden both approved and hand selected the terrorists.

      6. Are you that fucking dense? Oh yeah, they never missed the towers, just the thousands of people who perished. The point is, and I know you missed it, was the loss of not just a structure, but the freinds and loved ones slaughtered that day. So what if two ugly buildings went down taking all those people (including the victims on the planes) with them? My god, you are a piece of work.

      7. “I have as valuable and authoritative opinion as yours…”
      Uh, no you don’t. You’ve never been away from the backyard of Western civilization. You’re unworldly and terribly naive for someone who claims to have “info from across the world”. Watching “The Beeb” will only get you so much information. It helps to actually be exposed to a culture (especially that of an enemy) before you brag about having an “authoritative opinion”.

      Thanks for responding. You can go back to watching the telly, now.

      As for ‘sparks’, it would help if you had a couple between the old synapses.


      SFC MAC

  70. No, we had such a fool he attacked two countries that had not had a thing to do with the attacks. That’s right, even Afghanistan run by the Taliban had not attacked us, though they gave aid to the Saudi (a country we did not attack, wonder why) attackers. Then he spent so much on the stupid wars, he ran the whole country into the ground.

    What right do I have to speak? I’m someone who was 40 blocks away on 9/11, who spent that day walking north, trying to stay out of the shadow of the tallest buildings, stopping to give blood, hoping I and mine would live out the day. And I never wanted either of those wars, nor did most New Yorkers.

    Your suppositions regarding Guantanamo have all already been disproved, to the detriment of our country’s reputation worldwide. A good number of innocents rounded up with a few ignorant brainwashed combatants, have lost years of their lives with no benefit, only expense to us. There are maybe as many as 50 people in Guantanamo of any danger at all to the US, and for their sake, we have tortured an unknown number, thus besmirching our name as a non-torturing nation.

    1. djcnor,

      First of all, let me inform you as to why I have a right to speak.

      I’m an Iraq War veteran and retired Army Sergeant First Class, with a total of 30 years service. I was an Intelligence Analyst with considerable experience in counter-terrorism.

      Now, to refute your “arguments”:

      No, we had a President who had the guts to pick up the gauntlet thrown by terrorists and shove it up their asses.
      Don’t expect the same courage from B. Hussein (“negotiate without preconditions”) Obama.

      I’ve posted the following points on this blog before, and they bear repeating:

      No one, not even George Bush ever said that Iraq was directly involved in 9/11. What he did say, and the fact remains, is that Hussein was a threat with WMD, who supported al Qaeda, and a plethora of other terrorist groups.

      For 12 years, Iraq thumbed its nose at weapons inspectors and the U.N. resolutions. U.N. Resolution 1441 gave Hussein an ultimatum and us the specific authority to force compliance, by any necessary means. That included military force.

      In case you didn’t know, we found a substantial amount of hidden WMD along with documents and recordings in which Saddam Hussein emphatically stated his intention to continue WMD development and deception.


      Hussein gave thousands of dollars to families of suicide bombers and in addition, Iraqi intelligence met with al Qadea operatives and provided with training camps in Northern Iraq:

      The Mother of All Connections
      From the July 18, 2005 issue: A special report on the new evidence of collaboration between Saddam Hussein’s Iraq and al Qaeda.
      by Stephen F. Hayes & Thomas Joscelyn
      07/18/2005, Volume 010, Issue 41

      One of the letters we intercepted from Ayman al-Zawahiri to the now in hell Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, specifically mentioned the establishment an Islamic Caliphate in the “heart of the Islamic world”, to include Iraq. He mentioned this as being vital to Al Qaeda’s war against Western civilization. Afghanistan was a side show. Despite this, you Dem sock puppets keep spouting the line that Iraq is a “mistake” because it diverted our attention away from the “real war” in Afghanistan. Well, looks like Zawahiri refuted that notion. Zawahiri also said that Afghanistan is “just the groundwork and the vanguard for the major battles which have begun in the heart of the Islamic world.”

      Newsflash: Even after victory is officially declared in Iraq and Afghanistan, this war ain’t over by a long shot. Saudis and Egytpians, who comprised most of the 9/11 attackers, are only a small contingent. Jordan, Yemen, Syria, Iran, and Sudan, have all contributed to world-wide atrocities against Western civilization.

      When you retaliate, i.e.: attack an enemy, it’s usually a good idea to hit them where they live and breed, as well as their allies. In the Middle East it’s something like this: Pick one. Terrorists cross borders. They sure as hell crossed ours, didn’t they? The 9/11 attacks preceded our invasion of ME countries, not the other way around. Terrorists are trained, funded, and supported throughout the Middle East. The Islamofascist vision of a world Caliphate will continue unless we kill them all off. Our policy should be simple: you attack us, we annihilate you, your supporters, your country, everything.

      That’s how you fight a “jihad”. But, I’m a former Soldier, not a politician.

      The invasion of Afghanistan was prompted by its use as the major operating base for al Qaeda and the Taliban, who also had a part in 9/11 by providing training for the hijackers. They have been forced to flee across the border into Pakistan. Soon, there will be nowhere else for them to run.

      MY suppositions about GITMO? Don’t insult me. Have you ever bothered to ask any of the Soldiers tasked with quarding the terrorists what they think? How ’bout the Soldiers who captured the them? Those prisoners were captured after firefights and as part of seach and capture operations.

      As for “torture”:

      You piss and moan because you were 40 BLOCKS AWAY from the World Trade Center. You want torture? Try being trapped in those burning sky-scrappers 90 stories high thanks to a crash caused by Islamic thugs who used planes like human-filled missiles. You’re calling your loved ones on a cell phone to tell them that you’re probably not going to make it. There’s no escape except the choice of being incinerated to death or jumping out of a window.
      That is torture.

      So, New Yorkers, (since you claim to speak for them, and not the rest of America) ‘never wanted either of those wars’?
      Tell me, what kind of a war do you think was started on 9/11?

      The American public has to tear itself from the fantasy that we are fighting an enemy that plays by the Marquis of Queensbury Rules, or can find Geneva on a map. They don’t, and they can’t. They understand our way of thinking better than we ourselves. They don’t hesitate to use children as suicide bombers or human shields. They’ve got considerable occupational experience at torture, mutilation, and gratuitous executions. Feeling sorry for these shit bags is tantamount to weeping over a little humiliation meted out to former Nazis.

      Whomever makes the decision to release any of them to pick up where they left off; planting IEDs that kill American troops, targeting the West, and slaughtering innocent civilians, has a crap factory for a brain. (Read: B. Hussein Obama) He wants to ‘negotiate without preconditions’. The Islamofasicts and the rest of the world’s malefactors are salivating for a ‘change they can believe in’.

      Most of the GITMO terrorists have it pretty fucking good. Three hots, a cot, recreation, and all the bow-in-prayer-to Mecca time a jihadist could want. All things considered, they get better treatment than a prisoner in their confinment. At least we let them keep their heads.

      If connecting a terrorists’ testicles to a 12 volt battery will save American lives, I’ve got just two things to say:


      I won’t lose a minute’s sleep, either.

      Not to besmirch you or anything, but in case you don’t think 9/11 hit close enough to your own back yard, take a look at the New York skyline.

      See anything missing?

      Oh, but that’s right, you’re in LONDON, where incidentally, radical muslims operate carte blanche and the Parliament seems hell bent on making Britain into a Dhimmi satellite.

      SFC MAC

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